Another SBL Set-up Question

Hi Naheed,

If you have the time, I'd give it a try just for kicks.

People always used to recommend firing down the length of the room, now many prefer across -- probably depends a lot on the actual room. I suppose firing down the length was meant to give low notes some space to develop, but I think the firing direction might not make much of a difference for bass loading.

I would guess that a concrete boundary behind the SBL is always better than plasterboard.

Thomas

when the speakers RIGHT up against the wall give you phase linear sound, then this is ideal. a plasterboard should not be providing this reinforcement so i dont expect the sound to be phase linear. so without further info from you, all i can say is, concrete wall at all costs, my friend.

are you sure you want to use the mana SB for this??????? it might prevent the speaker from going back further to the back wall - which may be important for phase correctness.

the sbl to listener distance i'm not sure, and this may be irrelevant, because the real issue is correct speaker to speaker distance is as importance as phase linearity. both speakers must "talk" to one another. once acheived, the system will sound intelligible (the closer you get to the system the greater the emotional connection) anywhere you listen from WITHIN EARSHOT, not just the room.

a system is either musical or it isn't, and the sbl's neutrality makes it sound like absolute crap unless it's precisely positioned. another way of saying those last few mm are going to be a labour of love.

anyone intrigued by the SBL should give a correctly set up pair a shot. I have to say most other speakers are so colored, they are often construed as being forgiving to room, or system, or have greater abilities. Nothing could be further than the truth.

vik

Hi Vik

The speakers are 'right' against the wall (well not touching), the SBs are not an issue, when backing the SBLs to the wall.

The SBLs are equally positioning from the sidewalls, and around 5.5ft apart, moving the speakers to fire across the room would allow me to sperate the SBLs further (around 7ft)

Thomas, its a major pain moving everything and i was hoping the suck n see approach was a last resort, as repositioning the SBLs would also entail moving both racks...

naheed. . .

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as repositioning the SBLs would also entail moving both racks

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Yikes! That is a pain. Can you maybe borrow longer speaker runs to avoid doing that?

AFAICT, Vik is absolutely right with regard to getting the SBLs 'in phase'. I thought I pretty much had it half a year ago, but recent improvements with regard to my boxes' setup made me move the speakers about again. It was indeed a pain, and I only ended up moving the left speaker 1 cm and the right speaker 1.5 cm -- you would not believe how much of a difference that can make.

This still hasn't eliminated some minor resonances I get in the middle of my listening room, but on the whole these seemingly minute changes have resulted in a much more communicative sound, which -- as Vik says -- fills my entire flat.

It's hard to get, and if you haven't heard it happen before, you might not know what you're missing. I suppose you've done a fair bit of speaker shifting, Naheed -- just reiterating for anyone else who's reading this.

Thomas

Nahh bummer the racks sit where one of the speakers needs to be, its a tear-up jobbie.
I may do the move anyway, as it was primarily for rack reasons (further from the speakers & powered bits for the cds/etc...), it'll need to be a l-o-n-g weekend though

I'd say my SBLs are 1.5cm from the rear wall, i could get them closer but the speaker cable would be touching the rear wall (tried to achieve this a few times, hari dryer and all that, but that naca5 is a real bitch, but it sounds lo-v-e--ly

naheed. . .

"1.5cm from the rear wall"

I think that's close enough! Mine are about 2 cm measured from the rearmost part of the speaker or 6 cm measured from the back of the cabinet -- skirting board won't allow for more.

I recently moved my rack from very close to one speaker to roughly 3 m away. Sounds better, but I couldn't honestly say that this was not down to any other things (plug cleaning, readjusting the rack spikes etc).

Thomas

Naheed

We have something in common - SBL's against a plasterboard wall. Mine sound just fine now.

I've had all sorts of problems getting a good sound in my house, built about 1980. If I put them across the room, against a solid brick, cavity wall, they boom like buggery around 40/50 Hz and produce nothing below that.

I've experimented with acoustic room treatments and learned that rooms are so complicated, there is just no predicting what will/won't work.

Ignore the 'rules'. They're 'right' where they sound 'right' to you.

Good luck.

Try the long-side wall. I had my DBLs with a opening between and that opening made bass weak and soft.

/Erik

John,

Isn't that cheating putting your SBLs there, you're only getting half the bass reinforcement ?

"If I put them across the room, against a solid brick, cavity wall, they boom like buggery around 40/50 Hz": That sounds like my room, only no alternative layout possible. Oh well, onwards and upwards !


Vik,

"the real issue is correct speaker to speaker distance is as importance as phase linearity": Is this distance a 'constant', regardless of room. If so, what is the value ?

Allan

Allan

It's a simple case of compromise to get the best sound that the room will produce.

The pictured position does result in a slightly lacking upper bass, but the lowest stuff that SBL's will do is fantastic - very clean.

I'll take that over the 'fat' upper bass and no low bass they produce against the solid wall.

I'm not talking about where you heard them. That was in the narrow end of the room, through the arch.

Guys many thanks for all your advice...

In a few weeks (maybe sooner) i intend reshuffling the SBLs and rack, but i was also hoping to do the spur(s) thing at the sametime and also place a few extra screws on key floor boards, maybe a good/bad idea in terms of, there will be an improvement but its anyones guess what caused it.

I know this is being tight - but i recently bought an SBL gasket kit, and as usual it could'nt get the juice to flow from the sealant and once AGAIN snapped the bottles plastic noozle !!! - can i just use general purpose sealant as the naim bottle looks as though it is (well i think so its in german), or was this sealant carefully selected by Naim ears.

naheed. . .

"Is this distance a 'constant', regardless of room. If so, what is the value ?"

Allan, I can't affix a value to it per se, but it seems that for many cone-type loudspeakers the distance is between 5 - 6 feet tops, tweeter to tweeter, for small to large speakers.

For the planars or the hybrid planar-cone types it can go much wider, but 5 - 6 is still comfortable from a musical standpoint. Again, I have to say that "musical speaker to speaker interaction" occurs when there is no blurring of notes travelling from one speaker to the other, nor a thickening of sound, nor shoutiness etc etc etc.

With some of these designs, that musicality can be combined with a holographic presentation.

For the 5 - 6 ft distance, my guess is that it's just in the way speaker dispersion patterns interact with the brain to snap together a tri-dimensional soundscape.

Still, seeking to fully exploit the holographic soundstage thingy can often result in some instruments in the mix (most tellingly) like a singer or drumkit that's a hundred feet wide - and still be musical. many people in the industry call this "subjective" or "preference" (evil laugh).

vik

Does anyone know or have a feel for the minimum speaker to listener distance for SBL's? I'd like to try mine on the long wall (~24 feet) rather than the short wall they've always been on, but as this is only 10 feet wide, the speaker to listener distance would only be about 8 feet. I'm reluctant to try moving the SBL's to find out, so any advice would be gratefully received.

Richard

Richard, until recently I sat aproximatly 6 feet from the speakers. I thought it sounded great.

But after a change round in the sitting round I am now around 11 feet away and it sounds so much better. The trouble with SBLs I think is that if you are too close to the tweeter you will know all about it. I certainly won't be that close again.

Hi Richard

I have a similar story to Garyi - I used to have my SBL's firing across a 10 foot wide room (beyond the arch in the above picture).

They are now in the position in the picture and I prefer it, eleven feet away. I've just measured it - spooky eh Garyi?

BUT........ and this is the big one - they work where they work for you. Two friends have DBL's in smallish rooms and sit closer than that.

It's also a case of getting the best sound you can out of your room. I would prefer to have my SBL's either side of the fireplace on a solid outside wall, but they boom like buggery!

Oh yes; even SBL's can boom.

Old, solidly built houses with high ceilings seem to sound best. A friend is currently struggling to get a good sound in his brand new, detached bungalow in Scotland.

Solid brick walls are 'dry-lined' internally with plasterboard panels. So he's ended up with his system inside a resonating plasterboard box!

I despair with new houses. Sound insulation in non-detached properties is crap as well.

Good luck.

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Allan, I can't affix a value to it per se, but it seems that for many cone-type loudspeakers the distance is between 5 - 6 feet tops, tweeter to tweeter, for small to large speakers.

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Strange...I've discovered exactly the same thing with many rooms Vik. With a distance greater than 6 feet, it's as if someone took a photograph and tore it in half--each speaker presenting a "half" that never seems to gel together into a "whole". Reduce the separation to 6 feet (5 feet as a minimum) and the soundfield "knits" together into a coherent whole.

regards,

dave

maybe my case is not usual, I have a room overdamped with books, 4 m wide, the speakers fire the 5.6 length across (no other arrangement is possible), so I have a Spendorish sound with a benevolent 60 Hz addition.

What I want to say concerns the distance from the wall. If I push the speakers to near-wall position (within 5 cm) the sound becomes lifeless and uninteresting. If it’s really phase that it’s all about (I doubt it), then I get the optima somewhere in an arrangement where the wood(not wire!)-to-wall distance is 14-15 cm. Then the scene springs into focus.

Here I should mention that I have floating floor, bordered with a 10 cm wide plain band all around and this portion has a solid contact to the wall. If the spikes (+Fraimchips} touch that portion of the floor, sound will be immediatelly degraded. Other consideration can be that the main electric meter of the flat is all too near, anywhere over the wall.

Do you have the SBL gasket kit or the update kit? And, do you speak about the normal silicone or rather the syrinx of the blue liquid named Hylomar? My ones were dried out, following Richard Dane’s advice I’ve acquired it as car service material while the silicone sent by Name is of just the ordinary kind from the ordinary shops.

If you happen to have the old type woofer then you may update it. The newer one is nothing short of being phenomenal. Here I do feel what we are talking about: phase linearity across the crossover frequency range.

graphoman