Student Top Up fees

AG - 'Tis my belief based on observation when I was at school in the early 60s that the use of grants and free higher education did not prevent the poor from getting higher education - if they had achieved the academic standards. It may or may not have been fair that that the filtering out of the "bright" kids started when they were 11 by sending them to the grammar school. Slower developers still were able to succeed by transferring into the academic world at 16/17 years old and after the various part time courses at the local tech college.

My higher education consisted of 4 acedemic years minus 5 days at at a CAT and then 5 days at a university (the CAT was ordained as a University just before I left) and on the course I did there was a significant number of people who came in via the ONC, HNC and even the HND route. They also tended to be the most vocationally skilled and able on the course. My comment on the HND is that it was a very respected qualification approaching a degree in value.

RE Computer degree courses - I spent more than 30 years associated with computers and IT - (however that does not make me an expert - but it gives me a few opinions) and I have never understood (or seen) the benefits of a degree in "computering" in any of my fellow employees that could not have been bettered by a rigorous degree in the more traditional subjects be it arts, mathmatics, engineering, physics, etc.

My view is that employment required computing skills can be learned in task/product related courses.
That is my view for what it is worth - (which most likely will be debunked by the people with vested interests in turning "computering" into a form of academic activity)


EJT - I understand your comments about the US system - however the UK is not the US, there are great economic differences which have developed in the US as a result of the pool of student labour that have not developed in the UK. I also think that there is a more entrepreneural climate in the US based on the size of the country and a less risk averse culture -

In countries where the percentage of graduates has increased to the 50% figure, there is then pressure on the graduate to go after further academic study in order to stand out from the crowd.

Derek

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Originally posted by Derek Wright:

My view is that employment required computing skills can be learned in task/product related courses.

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That's probably true it terms of computer use, but probably not for computer programming. Having training in programming "properly" (e.g. structured methods and a thorough understanding of how computers function) is useful and does (in my experience) tend to lead to more efficient and effective code being produced. It is very important to combine business skills with computer science in most cases however.

Regards
Steve

Steve G -

Is training in "programming properly" a degree worthy subject or is it more akin to a craft skill like plumbing or bricklaying that can be taught at the local tech college?

Derek

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Originally posted by Derek Wright:
Steve G -

Is training in "programming properly" a degree worthy subject or is it more akin to a craft skill like plumbing or bricklaying that can be taught at the local tech college?

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Technical colleges used to be very good at turning out competent programmers - one of the colleges in Glasgow used to be particularily good.

In my IT career (14 years and counting) the 3 best programmers I've encountered all dropped out of university before graduating.

Anyway in my opinion is a worthy subject for a degree programme but it needs to have other subjects mixed in for the best effect. My own degree (at a Scottish university utilising an American course structure system) had its "major" in computer science, equal "minors" in business studies/management science and chemistry plus single semester course credits in physics, psychology and philosophy.

Regards
Steve

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Mr Toy

You said

"Graduates who benefit from higher education financially in the long term pay for their initial privilege many times over by paying more tax through their lifetime."

Yes I think 99.9% of the UK population know that so why say it.

This is a classic example of your stupid habit of coming in early in the morning and stating the blinding obvious.

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Mick,

I agree with you that what I said was blindingly obvious and yet our government persists in playing the politics-of-envy card in a feeble and futile attempt to win over hearts and minds of the population as whole on the issue of top-up fees and broken electoral promises.

Mr Graham,

Why would I need a spell checker? I have never used one.

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so I can see no reason for entering into any level of discourse with you.

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The above statement is self-contradictory.

Mr Graham has difficulty in grasping the distinction between viewpoints and their authors. He tends to confuse these entities in his attempts at reasoned debate.

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on TUESDAY 20 January 2004 at 12:36.]

I think Student top up fees are yet another great idea from New Labour.**

Blair just seems to lurch from disaster to disaster: Iraq, Kelly, Community Charge increases, Student fees.

Typical socialist politics- forget the fact that the govt will benefit from increased tax revenue from all these high earning graduates, make them pay for it as well- don't worry about that student debt, you'll be earning so much money it won't be a problem.
If introduced I predict that within a few years some universities will have difficulty filling courses (the shit ones that are a waste of time anyway like golf course management, call centre management etc). These courses will then be withdrwan, or......to cover the shortfall the fees for the popular courses will have to be increased and so it will go on.

The only way that Labour could top this is by installing Gordon Brown as Leader- a proper socialist. Blair has followed far too much of that nasty Thatcher doctrine.

** It's a good idea because the tories just have to watch from the sidelines as their opinion poll rating increases as Labour presses self destruct.

AG

Not disagreeing but expanding and supporting your point of view

Interesting that from across the political divide that we agree.

Derek

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Originally posted by Derek Wright:
Steve G -

Is training in "programming properly" a degree worthy subject or is it more akin to a craft skill like plumbing or bricklaying that can be taught at the local tech college?

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I studied Software Engineering at a UK university graduating in 1999. I have a very favaourable memory of the course and think it was excellent. I definitely think it was worthy of a degree, but obviously it is hard to compare with other universities since I've only been to one. The course I did had a very heavy emphasis on design which I think is the right approach.

I have met a few people in the workplace who have switched to developing software from other disciplines either on thier own or via a 1 year conversion course. In general I have found these people capable programmers, but tend to lack the knowledge of some design priciples and methodologies.

I refered to the above in an earlier post that seemed to upset Mr Graham.

You can read a newspaper article on the subject

here

You will have to log on, but let it be noted that this isn't the Daily Express or Mail, so certain individuals may require a dictionary



Regards,

Steve.

Presumably something the government wants to avoid at all costs is any sort of London power block developing as I imagine that a lot of tax is generated here. Simon

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All but one of her graduate friends are very poorly paid, and she believes that her degree was a complete waste of time.
My point is this: there has to be something wrong with a long term goal of 50% of the population going to University. I am against top up fees / loans etc for reasons previously stated by others on this thread, but I am even more against them if we are going to send half of school leavers to University. Its madness!
Out government seems to have a skill of combining the worst of both ends of the political spectrum - Tory doctrine combined with high taxation.

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It is in the interests to bury the educated middle classes; they either vote Conservative and/or they are able to see through government spin.

This government was elected by the middle classes on the basis of the lies they were told - that New Labour would take care of them - unlike Old Labour.

Blair promised that there would be no top-up fees just before the last election. Now he is determined to push them through parliament even against the wishes of many of his own MPs.

He is a man without scruples, he is completely devoid of integrity, and is totally unfit to run any nation. He will do and say anything in order to gain power only so to abuse that power once it becomes his.

Unlike my other favourite politician Mr Bush, Blair does at least have brains. He knows that by offering higher education to everyone and anyone who has the means to pay for it, rather than to, say, selecting the top ten per cent of the population purely in terms of ability and irrespective of their current financial means, he will effectively destroy the future power base that could threaten his own.

By offering hand-outs to the very poor to go into HE he is fostering a new generation of loyal working-class supporters. The upper classes will ensure that the next generation of theirs will maintain access to the means of production delivering the economic stability that will keep him in power (Blair has learnt that a planned economy i.e: as per communism simply doesn't work, so it is better to limit wealth-creation to a Few who won't challenge him while they remain rich, thank you very much.)

Meanwhile the middle classes will just disappear as an educated force to reckon with.

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Presumably something the government wants to avoid at all costs is any sort of London power block developing as I imagine that a lot of tax is generated here. Simon

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I suppose the London power block could be perceived as another threat to their own under Blair.

I'd actually like to see an independent Scotland, a devolved Wales, and English regional assemblies as hopefully they would all undermine the Whitehall power base, and each would take a fair share of national tax revenue per head of population.



Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on FRIDAY 23 January 2004 at 04:12.]

I now see why you are a taxi driver.

Regards

Mick

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
I now see why you are a taxi driver.

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Has he been wittering on again? I've developed a "Toy" filter (similar to the previous "no-horse" one) and I've found it to increase my enjoyment of this forum immensely.

Regards
Steve

Please do us all a favour and explain how one clicks this filter into action.

Many many thanks and kind regards

Mick

There is an argument that Government should not subsidise Higher Education at all. Invest in primary and secondary education to make that work (because it ain't working that well at the moment) and if there is some cash left over for HE grants, give it to those who need it most i.e. those from poorer backgrounds.

Nor do I accept that we "need" more graduates per se. We might need more in certain sectors so why not encourage people to study in those sectors?

cheers

Nigel

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We might need more in certain sectors so why not encourage people to study in those sectors?

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Heard on R4 this AM that the Institute of Physics are planning to offer bursaries to encourage more people to study science as opposed to some of the 'softer' subjects. That seems like a creative idea to me, so why not extend it.

Industry and commerce are beneficiaries of the HE system and ultimately gain financially from having a pool of well trained people with the right degrees, so why not get them to subsidise University Courses that are appropriate to their future needs.

Like many on here, I can see little real benefit accruing from sending 50% and more people to Uni to study subjects that are not going to be of use to them in their careers. I'm a great believer in edoocashun, but in the real world, it has to meet the need rather than being just for it own sake.

David

Sometimes I find local government all a bit alarming. My experience of it is that councils and the like are run by people whose primary objective is to boost their own ego, and whose secondary objective is to make sure that their son's engineering / building firm is awarded lucrative contracts. However, I do admit that I am talking about (specific) Tories here, so perhaps its nothing new after all.
However Steven, wouldn't the creation of regional assemblies create added bureaucracy and replication of functions and activities, and also a lack of joined up thinking?
Simon

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Originally posted by Simon Perry:
Sometimes I find local government all a bit alarming. My experience of it is that councils and the like are run by people whose primary objective is to boost their own ego, and whose secondary objective is to make sure that their son's engineering / building firm is awarded lucrative contracts.

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I've had a lot of dealings with councils (mainly as a IT service supplier) and they do vary greatly.

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However Steven, wouldn't the creation of regional assemblies create added bureaucracy and replication of functions and activities, and also a lack of joined up thinking?

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Also the issue with the "West Lothian" question isn't quite as clear as Steven made out. In the case of tuition fees most of the parties feel that even though the legislation does not directly apply to Scottish institutions there may well be a knock-on effect e.g. it may mean more English (and Welsh I presume) students coming to Scottish universities to avoid tuition fees plus if as a result of the additional funding the universities south of the border are able to offer better employment packages we may see significant staff movements out of the Scottish universities.

Even the SNP, who I think tend not to vote at Westminster when the issue in question has been devolved, are planning to vote on this one.

Regards
Steve

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Has he been wittering on again? I've developed a "Toy" filter (similar to the previous "no-horse" one) and I've found it to increase my enjoyment of this forum immensely.

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is followed by

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Also the issue with the "West Lothian" question isn't quite as clear as Steven made out. In the case of tuition fees most of the parties feel that even though the legislation does not directly apply to Scottish institutions there may well be a knock-on effect e.g. it may mean more English (and Welsh I presume) students coming to Scottish universities to avoid tuition fees plus if as a result of the additional funding the universities south of the border are able to offer better employment packages we may see significant staff movements out of the Scottish universities.

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The filter is being used rather selectively as Mr Graham has chosen to repond to the issue of Scotland that I raised.



Regards,

Steve.

Quote..The filter is being used rather selectively as Mr Graham has chosen to repond to the issue of Scotland that I raised.


Why do you persist in stating the blindingly obvious. A boy of six could have deduced that.


Regards

Mick

There exists software that effectively filters out eveything written by a given poster. It is not selective.

Unfortunately you are faced with the stark choice of being able to read all of my posts or none of them.

Also, such things only become blindingly obvious once they are pointed out.

Regards,

Steve.

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on SATURDAY 24 January 2004 at 04:43.]

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However Steven, wouldn't the creation of regional assemblies create added bureaucracy and replication of functions and activities, and also a lack of joined up thinking?

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Possibly, but I'm also in favour of getting rid of tier(s) of administration lower down such as district councils. I live in a district that includes two small towns - the bigger of the two rides rougshod over the smaller. Let each have its own town council, and let education and the road network be governed centrally either by the Regional Assembly or by the Department for Education and Highways Agency respectively.

This in turn would significantly reduce the scope for "replication of functions and activities, and lack of joined up thinking" at the County level on the above issues at least.



Regards,

Steve.

I have given up with you.

If you want to continue making yourself look stuping by coming in with banal comments that even a 6 year old would not make, then fair enough.

Regards

Mick

Some interesting rekindling of all the old classic points there gentlemen, though servicing local councils IT wise seems a contradiction in terms ? Whilst happily continuing to make myself look "STUPING" I have to once again reitterate those problems with Censorship etc, in that any kind of filters are actually counterproductive to all of our arguments, as they portray only a desired picture, and not the true one, innit.


Fritz Von McCainworkingforhealthierfuturebritishstudents

Mick...

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Why do you persist in stating the blindingly obvious. A boy of six could have deduced that.

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Trouble is Mick, there is never one (a boy of six that is..) around just when you need one

(original by Groucho Marx)

Laurie S