Why should I start with analog?

Hi Reto

You be heading for trouble mate

If I were you I'd spend the money on an 82 instead.

Jay

Yabba, dabba, doooooo

Reto>
I know what you mean. I used to own an LP12 and ditched it and my record collection to focus on CD (yes, I know, stupid decision).

Either way, I do have harkings for a good deck on occasions. Just consider this, how much better will your CDs sound if you use all the cash you're intenting to spend on an LP12 on a better front end?

There's a similar arguement now for SACD. From what I understand as a format it sound very good. Problem is that you'd need to get a whole new music collection.
So whilst I don't particularly like MF gear, I'll go along with their idea of trying to make CDs sound as good as SACD players.

Hi Reto

Vinyl is still king IMHO, but it wouldn't make sense today to invest in a stonking vinyl front end unless you already have a good collection of records. Perhaps you could invest in a second hand Rega 3(an astoundingly good front end for the price) and a good quality MM cartridge and get MM boards for your 102 (does the 102 take phono boards?) and invest in a good selection of second hand and new records and slowly build up your collection.

Yours in Music

Syd

Reto

I've a CDX/XPS and a Rega P25 combo....

Don't bother with a P3 you'll be wasting your money, it'll just &*&* you off.....if you gonna do it do it right! LP12, P9, etc...

But again you're asking for a whole heap of trouble.......every buck you spend on a new TT and all the vinyl that you'll need to feed it will keep you from an 82 and a lot of CD's.

I've recently done the 102 to 82 and it's a real eye opener - that's where your dollars need go

Jay

Yabba, dabba, doooooo

I believe Syd is thinking along the right lines here. There are plenty of relatively inexpensive TTs around these day (e.g. Rega, Projekt) which do an excellent job. Start with one of those and see how your vinyl collection builds before upgrading to a better source later.

If good secondhand Vinyl proves difficult to find in Switzerland you may ultimately decide to put your investment more into the digital front end as things like SACD improve.

David

Hallo Reto,
By all means - Go for Vinyl!
Although in principle I have to agree with other comments as above: If you don’t have already a collection of Vinyl, a new start has to be well considered.
BUT (a big BUT): there is quite a good variety of second hand (s/h) Vinyl available in Switzerland, including of course also the usual high-price rarity shops, such as Schopper in Winterthur. Also the Swiss analogue association supports regular events.
If you are into classical music, you can get all the “old beauties” at cheap prices (around 5 to 20 CHF) at these s/h shops. Of course quality differs from good to useless (it’s part of the game – reasonable dealers do offer you free return, though)
For the important matter of the source, there is also excellent s/h equipment around - and of course all that new & beautiful high-end stuff. My opinion is nevertheless, that for value for money Vinyl at least equals CD’s.
As you are nearby, give me a mail on ursmarti@bluemail.ch, maybe we can have a direct chat

Regards
Urs

Reto,
what kind of music are you listening to?
If it is mainly 1990s and contemporary music, you will not find a lot on vinyl. For older kinds of music, vinyl can be found, but are usually expensive nowdays, especially in good shape.

Ask you the question: how much time you will use vinyl versus CD? It will give the answer wether to take the plunge or not.

I also agree with other posts saying that to go seriously into vinyl, a P3 is a bit short.
The other problem is if you have just a P3 level TT, it will not be good enough (compare to the rest of your system) and you will not take pleasure spinning records.

just my two cents

Jean-Marc

PS: there's a good vinyl shop in Geneva.

Thanks everybody for your answers,

I listen to a wide variety of music (classical,
world music, jazz etc). Generally I prefer to buy new recordings, new releases. For that reason I decided to take the CD way.

On the other hand, there is a lot of "old" music that interests me esp. in the classical and jazz corner and I suppose there might be lots of second
hand lp's available that are worth having them.

When I decide to go for vinyl then I go for LP12.

The one question is: Do I find what I'm looking for (a lot of good vinyl stuff)?

If no I'd better go for CDS....

Reto

CDX-XPS, NAC102, NAPSC, Hi-Cap, NAP 250, Naim Fraim, Chord Odysee 4, ProAc Response 2.5

Hello again Reto

Your main problem at the moment is that you have NO vinyl. Spending a fortune on the best TT and a few LPs is really not the best way to go. A cheaper TT ie. Rega3 or the Project decks will allow you to build up a vinyl collection a lot faster. Like many on this Forum I started with a cheap record player in the 60s and moved up through Pioneer PL12D, Rega 2, Rega 3 and eventually LP12. By the time I had the Linn I had a record collection of 400-500 LPs and the outlay was justified.

In reply to those who feel that a Rega 3 level TT is just not good enough for the rest of your system I would disagree as the Rega does things that very few CD players can. It majors on musicality with a great sense of coherence, it doesn't go off and need a service every year to give of it's best and I've a friend who has had one for twenty odd years and still prefers it to his top end Marantz (£1000+) cd. He's never felt the need to upggrade to a better front end. Buy one second hand and as many LPs as you can find and you will realise just how good vinyl is.

Lastly there is one thing to be taken into account and that is the convenience factor. Many on this forum like myself don't mind getting up every 20 minutes to change the record, but if you've always had CD then this might piss you off. Also record care and stylus care are very important.

Have a good think first before you do anything and weigh up all the pros and cons in vinyl replay. Have a listen to a variety of front ends in your system or nearest eqivalent including SACD and DVDA before commiting yourself.

Yours in Music

Syd

But a CDSII is better (than Rega), isn't it?

Reto

CDX-XPS, NAC102, NAPSC, Hi-Cap, NAP 250, Naim Fraim, Chord Odysee 4, ProAc Response 2.5

quote:

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Originally posted by Reto from Switzerland:
But a CDSII is better (than Rega), isn't it?

Reto

CDX-XPS, NAC102, NAPSC, Hi-Cap, NAP 250, Naim Fraim, Chord Odysee 4, ProAc Response 2.5

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Reto

Without going into an area explored a thousand times on this forum, with certain records and cds a Rega 3 would beat ANY CD player to a bloody pulp. When CD first came out it really was as bad as they say. Only in the past few years and from certain manufacturers Naim etc, has replay started to become really listenable. There are literally thousands of CD player models which are just not musical in any way. You happen to own one of the better models and I would suggest you go and have a demo of the Rega against your CDX ASAP. Dont think HI FI but think music. What unit get's you closer to the sound of a live concert and which unit conveys the emotional content of music the best. Try it with quite a few LPs and CDs and I think you will be surprised.

Cheers

Syd

I haven't heard yet one of those vinyl freaks who tells me that CD is dead compared to analog.

From what I've read until now, I conclude that vinyl is more a "very nice to have" than a "must have".

I further conclude that a top CD player is after all very close to even a top LP12. The difference
is mentionable but not dramatic.

Cheers.

Reto

CDX-XPS, NAC102, NAPSC, Hi-Cap, NAP 250, Naim Fraim, Chord Odysee 4, ProAc Response 2.5

If you do decide to start off with an LP12, you then have to decide at what level to buy-in to the LP12 product range. With no experience of vinyl systems this will not be easy and you could end up spending an awful lot of money. My feeling is still that you'd be better off starting with a less demanding and less expensive beast until your LP collection justifies upgrading it.

If you're going to be buying a lot of S/H vinyl, frankly you'd be far better off investing the difference in a proper wet/vacuum LP cleaner. Trust me - an LP12+EKOS+expensive MC cartridge and filthy dirty charity shop or boot-sale vinyl is NOT a marriage made in heaven and will rapidly degrade the Vinyl experience to a point where you may wonder why you bothered

My advice in summary, do buy into the Vinyl thing, but do it in steps and spend wisely (unless of course you're a millionaire )

David

Reto,

LPs are satisfying in a different way than CDs, each has strengths and each can beat the other depending on pressings and masterings etc. My best LPs have some intangible living quality that the best CDs don't, but it's close.

The most critical thing for getting the absolute best from Cds is a dedicated line for your system, if you have this then you'll need to go better, imo, than a P3. I've had a P3 twice and never been satisfied with them, although I do rate it as a TT choice, more so than a Linn. A Linn may, at 500-600 GBP, be difficult to beat, however. I believe if you have sub optimal mains to your system analogue has a better chance of sounding better than CD. With the mains sorted CD jumps dramatically and with modern well recorded CDs will not leave you craving something better, even though there may be LPs out there that sound better.

Peter

I have been slowly ditching my CDs and buying up LP collections. I am down to approx. 100-200CDs and upto approx 1,500LPs. Sold over 2,000LPs. In the end the coversion hasn't cost me 1 cent! I haven't played my CDS in over a year! not a single CD. Why? LPs are much more enjoyable and they cover the music era that I love.

Also don't build up your LP collection by go looking for single LPs one at a time, you need to buy up a few collections. It's amazing how cheap you can buy them.

My 2 cents!

I've bought way more LPs than CDs over the past several years, even though I have a CDS1.

The key is availability of used vinyl in the areas you frequent. You can buy vinyl on E-Bay, but it's risky; there are a lot of unscrupulous dealers out there. I just think of 'kleinfj' in Chicago who marks everything RARE and appears to be a real prick.

There are a number of reputable mail order dealers in the EC; their product is good, but pricey.

If there are used LP stores around,mthoug, you can probably get a lot of used vinyl for far less than even used CD prices - if you collect music to listen to, as opposed to collecting the 'best' issues, as defined by Harry Pearson. There is just an immense amount of terrific music beutifully performed on vinyl.

I still use CDs - for new stuff that I absolutely have to have, or for hostorical stuff that is too pricey on vinyl.

I would think that additional music on vinyl would be FAR more satisfying than an 82.

Regards.

Phil

quote:

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If [the music you prefer] is mainly 1990s and contemporary music, you will not find a lot on vinyl.

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What?! You couldn't be more wrong. There's lots of contemporary music available on LP, even thoroughly mainstream artists such as Britney Spears and Destiny's Child can be had on vinyl. Just take a look at Diverse Vinyl or Music Direct or Red Trumpet or even Amazon for a start. Beyond these sources there are what seem to be a million small record labels that sell LPs direct and cheap. One favorite of mine is Hopeless Records who sell LPs for a mere $7 including postage to US addresses. Hopeless artists Dillinger 4's brilliant Versus God was mastered by legendary audiophile cutter Stan Ricker, and it's yours for just $7.

Beyond LPs, if you want really contemporary music there's a constant torrent of rap and dance 12" singles in specialist shops.

You won't find much if any newly recorded classical music or country music on LPs, but most genres of pop and rock are well - represented.

Reto wrote:

"I further conclude that a top CD player is after all very close to even a top LP12. The difference
is mentionable but not dramatic."

Yes, I would say that this is the case (as a user of CDSII and LP12/Cirkus/Lingo/Ekos/Arkive B). Both can sound unbelivebly good and unbelivebly bad depending on the software. At times it hard for me to hear which is playing, even if I know it!

I have about 900 LP:s that I have bought to listen to (yes, there are some rotten eggs in there) and I will continue to do that for the rest of my life. In most cases, buying the same music again on CD has been a disapointment, it does not sound better (or worse).

Would I go for a top flight vinyl player today if I was in your situation, Reto?

No. Spend it CD:s with good music instead.

JohanR

I agree with you Rob that vinyls are definitevely still issued, but have you an idea of the percentage of newly issued titles on vinyl compared to the amount of what is issued on CD?

What, something like 1% or 2% is my guess, maybe less? Is that enough to warranty a purchase of a top flight TT?

This said, I am always happy to purchase newly released titles on vinyl when I can and I will keep an eye on the site you mentionned - many thanks for the links - and I also buy lots of used LPs.

Cheers
JM

I have CDX/XPS and also LP12/Lingo/Ittock/Lydian.

In my system, it is true to say that CD does not come close to vinyl with a good, well pressed copy. However there are as many poor vinyl pressing as there are good ones. I have 1000 LPs and 400 CD's but I am buying more CD's now than LP. The CDX/XPS combo is quite capable of putting up a good fight with a top vinyl system on most recordings. Plus the extra hassle factor of vinyl should not be underestimated.

In your position I would consolidate you CD playing system. Money spent on a vinyl system could buy you a lot of new CDs, or go towards upgrading to a CDS/82 etc. However I would concentrate on the music and buy CDs.

quote:

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have you an idea of the percentage of newly issued titles on vinyl compared to the amount of what is issued on CD?

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Well, a quick look shows that 7 of the 10 best - selling albums in the US this week are available on vinyl. They're not hard to find either, online retailers CDNow and Amazon have them for example.

I never said that there were more new LPs being issued than CDs, of course that's not true. But its completely wrong to say that contemporary music is hard to find on vinyl. It may be hard to find LPs in your local shops but anyone reading this forum is only a few keystrokes away from a huge variety of record stores, dealers, and record labels from around the world. Then there's used vinyl which can be found cheaply in yard and boot sales and thrift stores. Once one becomes known as "that guy who wants records" you'll find people will even give you their old LPs for free just to get rid of them. Reto can accumulate a library of great music on used LPs very inexpensively - that may be the best reason to own a turntable now.

The answer is the same as the one you get when asking a local person directions in a strange town...I wouldn't start from here if I were you!

I run an old LP12/Valhala/Ittok/DV10x4 and a CDI. In some of the music I listen to: 1950's and 60's Jazz, Rock, Reggae, Hip-hop, Drum and Bass, vinyl kills CD every time. I haven't heard the CDS2 (can't afford it, so best not to) but it would have to be a very different kind of sound to the CDI for me to prefer it to a pretty basic (if not basik) LP12. These kinds of music need to swing and vinyl (and naim) will give you this. If I listened to these kinds of music I would still get into vinyl from scratch even with your investment into CD. In any case, much modern music still appears on vinyl only. I'm thinking of 12" singles mainly. You are missing out on some great stuff if you have no means of playing it! The surface noise issue isn't an issue on Jamaican pressing of Beenie Man: it sound 'wrong' without a little snap, crackle and pop! You mention that you like classical music. The other half of my listening (and when listening with my other half) is classical. This is all on CD. Clicks and scratches whilst listening to Schubert Lieder?? Horrendous! Britney may be available on vinyl but Ian Bostridge never will be, so CD it is.

duncan