Sea Change

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

The twenties can't see a future.

...

What gives?

I am 48 and I cannot see a future ...

ATB from George

quote:

This must have happened before, just not in my adult lifetime.

What gives?

I don't think thats right Mike. This is a function of the evolution of our way of life.

Both my sons are now in their 30's but in their 20's they admitted they had no future plan. When asked they pointed to the lack of any clear garauntees that could be used to promise a future to aim for. They were really the first generation for quite a long time that re-learnt the hard lessons that education did not establish a safe future anymore and that no job was safe from lay offs. These are highly demotivating elements of life today.

I was lucky enough to grow to maturity thru' the late 50's and into the 60's. The ethic that a good education brought the promise of a good job future was strong and it did turn out that way for a lot of people. In those days there were professions which seemed virtually free of the spectre of job loss. Not anymore.

When I had that explained to me by my sons I realised it was no surprise they had no long term future plan to motivate them.

regards
Geoff

PS I sent you an e-mail a week or so ago. Did you get it?

If you've seen tonight's "Horizon" on population growth vs resources, you'll know that there's - like - ah! No future...

Johynny was right.

Mike

Bollocks....catastrophic events will create a different future...it might not resemble today but to say there is "no future" is bollocks IMO.

Cheers

Jim

There has to be a future.

In the end, it will turn out alright. If it's not alright, it's not the end.

I worked with a child actor for many years who is now in his twenties. His favourite bands are Pink Floyd, The Smiths, Led Zeppelin and Nick Drake.

It works both ways, although it his case it does say a lot about who child actors are exposed to, notably old rockers.

Dear Mike,

Now you have hit on what my definition of future is. Not a job for life, but the possibility of even one more generation living our consumerist dream style of life.

Now this is a style of life that I actually cannot afford to indulge even as someone in employment in the UK, as the truth is that the low paid in the UK are actually no better off in real terms than the low paid in Poland for example. I know something of the currency and maths, and shared housing is inevitable in both cases on low wages with normal rent levels even for the most modest dwellings!

No the future is to leave something for the next generation that is worth striving for, and this is exactly why I have said for more than twenty years that I would take every legal step to avoid having children. I am afraid my view of those who blythely carry on and procreate is unpublishable on the forum, but at the polite end of the scale is something like selfish thoughtless fools, though comparison to person female’s parts is also part of the description.

Call me a fan of Malthus and I will gladly agree. I first had the idea as an eleven year old at Prep School.

I took the whole theory of population growth, inevitable consumption, and disaster to my biology teacher who was Arnie Darlington who was a great man and the man behind the Nuffield O-level Biology syllabus and teaching course, generally adopted in the best secondary and public schools in England at a time before dumbing down of Science teaching.

He simply said that I had seen the truth and disaster would soon follow, as he dispassionately put it [in 1973] either before you die or certainly before your children do. Don't have any would be my advice, given that you have seen it coming.

ATB from George

The planet has a future about another 15 billion years or so I believe. How big a part we have in that future still has to ascertained.


Previously even less well educated chaps like my self had good and lasting jobs. I started in '63 and had a choice of 4 jobs. My eldest 3 years ago lost her job and took almost a year to get a job , which she enjoys but pays shite. This is in apparently the best area in the country for employment,what life must be like in the old mine a steel areas heavens knows.

Now that's plan I hadn't considered.
SO mortgage the house to the max and spend it and all leave them with the bills eh?

Or in the case of people like me, stubbornly refused to create ...

That will only make matters much worse George. If you sit down and think about it (I've done this)...the world needs well balanced, future folk. If life has dealt you a good set of cards (which it has to all of us)...you owe it to the world to bring up some well informed kids.

I don't see a bleak future for folk like us at all. We existed happily long before oil and gas and will do so after they're gone. Millions will be lost through flood, famine and drought...but as terrible as this is. It won't be here.

It's the nature of humans to always assume things are getting worse...but 60 odd years ago gypsies, communists, disabled folk, jews, gay folk and JW's were being stuffed into ovens and millions slaughtered elsewhere. Equally the UK is a much better place today than it was in the 1980's imo. Massive steps have been taken in environmental conservation and we're heading in the right direction. The future's bright.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
I would take every legal step to avoid having children. I am afraid my view of those who blythely carry on and procreate is unpublishable on the forum, but at the polite end of the scale is something like selfish thoughtless fools, though comparison to person female’s parts is also part of the description.

People who have children have demonstrated a faith in the future. Those who have children become well practiced in putting the needs of others ahead of personal self-interest.

It's parents who will solve the problems facing us.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
I would take every legal step to avoid having children. I am afraid my view of those who blythely carry on and procreate is unpublishable on the forum, but at the polite end of the scale is something like selfish thoughtless fools, though comparison to person female’s parts is also part of the description.

People who have children have demonstrated a faith in the future. Those who have children become well practiced in putting the needs of others ahead of personal self-interest.

It's parents who will solve the problems facing us.

& from someone who has kids I think it's just an (unprintable words) thing to even think - let alone say / put into print.
Some of us thought very hard about whether to bring more into this world - and I am very proud that I took the correct decision.
The happiness and joy they can (and do) bring is inspiring to most. They also represent the future of the human race - whatever that may be. Brought up correctly and in full knowledge of their responsibilities they very much are 'the future'.

The thought of a future without (or hardly any) children is just ???? horrible.

Mike's words above - (I guess for the vast majority of parents) and absolutely correct.

quote:

People who have children have demonstrated a faith in the future. Those who have children become well practiced in putting the needs of others ahead of personal self-interest.

It's parents who will solve the problems facing us.

Sorry Mike, I just cant subscribe to that massive generalisation.
I, like George, at a very early stage in my life decided against having children, fortunately I found a Partner who also subscribed to this.
I know many parents who are selfish and ill informed individuals who proved Darwin correct when he stated that those least equiped to survive procreate most often to ensure the survival of their Genes ! It does'nt take brains to procreate (look around you for anyone wearing a baseball cap (sorry in the UK) and pushing a Burberry pram with a snot nosed epsilon in it!
Do you honestly think that
(m)any of these 'parents' give a Sh*** about the progenies future ?
Yes many parents will be there solving the problems of the future, but not because they are parents.
Charlie

quote:

Sorry Mike, I just cant subscribe to that massive generalisation

And yours is not a generalisation of course <shakes head>

Not everyone makes perfect parents - and yes it is easy to have kids - but who (on earth) should decide? You and George?

I suppose all the wonderful composers had truly amazing, thoughtful, wonder what the future will hold parents?

Enough from me - even thinking this I find utterly disgusting. Anyone that saw Attenborough last night will know what happens when you try to 'impose' this onto a generation - and there is a very simple solution, called education.
That may mean both parents and children of a generation, but given what happened recently in Rwanda, and what is happening right now is enlightening.

Steve, Did you read what I said ?

quote:

Enough from me - even thinking this I find utterly disgusting.

Thinking what?

quote:

Anyone that saw Attenborough last night will know what happens when you try to 'impose' this onto a generation

Impose what?
All I suggested is that JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE HAS CHILDREN DOES NOT GIVE SOME SORT OF MAGICAL INSIGHT INTO PRESERVING THE PLANET, NOR DOES IT NECESSERILY MEAN YOU ARE ANY MORE INCLINED TO DO SO. WHY WOULD IT ?
The argument that because you may have procreated does not mean you care any more for the survival of future generation than me!
It just means you have children.
If you read anything sinister in my post then please accept my appolgy, this was not the intention. But I do not retract the sentiment. George can speak well enough for himself.
Charlie

That's were George and HowlingDog have missed the point somewhat. There are lots of bad folk who become parents, what the world needs is bright, attractive, talented, funny and extremely humble parents like myself.

I believe that children are our future, but we must treat them well, and led them lead the way.

Thinking about kids the way that you and George appear to be.
Your post does not state that having kids gives parents some insight into saving the planet, it generalises that those who wear baseball caps and push prams of a certain make are all but brainless.
What happens if one of those kids in a pushchair as you described turns out be be utterly brilliant and does go a long way to saving the planet? Would it be ok then that the parents were as you describe.

Imposing limits on children is what I was talking about. It would appear that you want to do something about those who you consider to be un-worthy parents. I did put forward an answer - education.

I'm certain China's population are truly happy about it - after what is going on over there with births of boys v girls?
As for the program, I guess you wouldn't get to see it - try BBC I player and search out last nights programs on BBC2.

It shows exacty what is happening to the earth, its population explosion and what needs to be done.

As for 'why would it' well I guess you need to be a parent to understand that one - but anything you would do for your partner you would do equally for your kids (from most parents points of view I guess) That is not meant as a cheap shot - I'm just saying what I would do.
If getting rid of my hifi / changing what I do would help my children (& hopefully grandchildren) then it would be done immediately.

Jezzz guys, can we all lighten up. Life is nothing new and it is not so depressing (but your guys are making me feel that way) Life is unfair to some and more than fair to others, its just the way it is. I am sure even in the times of the hunter gatherers life as they knew it was discussed and I am sure they said whatever words were used for as "life is a bitch" 'cause of whatever, just as we all do today.

Children do not give anyone the responsibility or the right to do anything, other than raise them to the best of your ability. Conversely no children (by choice or the deal of the deck) also has nothing attached.
Understanding children generally or your offspring in particular of any age is not compulsory, its helps for sure and then some, but they will get by anyhow. Just as so many generations before have done with parenting all over the place and I am also sure far far more extreme variations than acceptable these days.
I personally committed to give my kids the best I could, and a few BSC's & PhD's seem to show that I (we) did OK. But I know we got lucky - very lucky - & know a few very caring & model parents with kids that have gone off the rails big time.
And for those that see other kids as snot nosed epsilon's (great phase sir), believe me folks everyone else's kids are snot nosed PITA, and its only your own snot nosed shrieking spotty cross eyed zombies that are perfect.

Steve, I've been out with my dog and am in a cool rational frame of mind.
My original post was a comment on Mikes generalisation that it will be 'parents that will solve the problems facing us'
Is it safe to assume that it will be children of parents that solve the problems facing us. (i.e. we can guarantee that they had parents but not that they are in fact parents).
I then said

quote:

Do you honestly think that (m)any of these 'parents' give a Sh*** about the progenies future ?

I think the 'm' in front of 'any' suggested fairly well that I am not generalising that all of the mentioned group are without hope. However many are, that is plain simple fact. Educate as much as you want but don't waste your time with the parents, for them it's just too late. You may not agree, that's your choice.

quote:

As for 'why would it' well I guess you need to be a parent to understand that one

Now who's generalising!
What great insight do people receive at the birth of a child that us 'barren mortals' are not privy ?

quote:

Originally posted by Howlinhounddog:
What great insight do people receive at the birth of a child that us 'barren mortals' are not privy ?

An acceptance of shite and bodily fluid as simply the fodder of the universe. You people (or 'oversleepers' as I like to call you) remain sniffy about such substances...we (parents) embrace these substances as the mortar that holds our pretty little floral lives together. That above all thing's is what we are here to learn.

Blessed are the children...as George Foreman once said.

Being present at the birth of your child has an effect that (speaking for myself) changes your life significantly in a way rather difficult to put into mere words. This may or may not be the same for the majority, I have no idea.
If that is being general - then sorry.
I have no problem with folk not wanting kids in general, nor would I wish them anything less than they would themselves - but when those same folk start saying things as written above? Well my thoughts are fairly obvious.

My concern is entirely general. I hope that the World can survive and supporting a reasonable population of humans.

The population of humans is already well above what is sustainable.

I have absolutely no doubt that people who have brought children into the world are proud of the fact.

In my view given the issue of sustainabilty they ought to be prouder if they refrained from doing so.

I happen to think the situation concerning the finite nature of many resources that we are exhausting at an ever growing rate, is sufficient to allow me to hold the view that bringing children onto this world is profoundly selfish on two levels.

Firstly towards the children themselves, because of the problems they will face in their lifetimes [if not their parents' lifetimes] are certainly going to be greater than any problems encountered by the human race so far, and secondly, the simple fact that the greatest reduction in using finite resources to a more nearly sustainable level is to refrain from procreation.

I do not post this to make myself popular. I am not a politician. I do not need to court favour and gloss over uncomfortable truths.

My view might have been very unusual in the 1970s, but it is much less so nowadays.

You may wonder where the next generation of humans will come from, but I think it is not in doubt that we have enough babies being born every day to ensure certain doom for most of the human population within two or three generations, because of ever increasing population and depletions of crucial resources. To wonder where the human race's next generation is coming from is to ponder a hypothetical situation ...

George

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:


People who have children have demonstrated a faith in the future.

More like, demonstrated drunken sex...

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
My view might have been very unusual in the 1970s, but it is much less so nowadays.

I actually think that Madame Brundtland may take umbridge at the notion that your position was, or is, in any way unusual George my old mate.

We're all entitled to our opinions and it's great fun to share them on here...so fear not about popularity. I know I don't come on here for Christmas cards...

George I consider you a bright little spark, and many of your posts show a considered and intelligent position...I think this thread however isn't one of those.

I'll rarely agree with doom and gloom posts...I genuinely see very little evidence that this century will be bothersome...unless of course you are born into misfortune (as many millions are).

I'm actually not proud at all to have brought a child into the world ( rather, I consider myself lucky). I do however (from a humble position) consider that myself and my wife will in all likelyhood unleash a well balanced human into society that will make a positive difference to the world. In fact, I'd be doing the human race a great disservice if I didn't do so...I've been amazingly lucky when the hand of life was dealt and it would be extremely selfish not to use that to help the next generation.

The sons and daughters of good folk today, will be the leaders and solid members of tomorrow's society (nurses, Dr's, glamour models, musicians, electronic engineers and brewers). Amen.

As ever though George...great fun.