Sea Change

quote:

Originally posted by Steve2701:

Not everyone makes perfect parents - and yes it is easy to have kids - but who (on earth) should decide? You and George?

Certainly not me. I just think people should think about what a sustainable level of human population is, and what they personally are going to do about it. Personal action, and not inforced action from governements, is the only way forward. I would be the last person to actually want to force [in a position of authority] someone not to have children, but I have no problem letting them have some food for thought on the subject. Of course some people have been known to go off me because I probe a set of thoughts that are certainly not comfortable.

quote:

Thinking about kids the way that you and George appear to be.

What do I think about kids? You seem to suggest that I have made clear my view of them! I will now: I like kids as a rule if they are not spoiled. Kids often like me. My nephew and niece think I am a legend! I do not spoil them. I do not even see them that much, but they seem to really like me! Surprising but true.

My problem is with the parents!

ATB from George

Dear Mat,

So long as we can keep it polite, then no real harm is done!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Mat,

So long as we can keep it polite, then no real harm is done!

ATB from George

Exactly George...but that's the drawback of these things. Even when being polite, sometimes the nuance can be taken the wrong way.

It would be a dull forum if we all agreed.

I totally agree with you re: spoiling kids though George...I do admit to sparing the rod however.

quote:

Being present at the birth of your child has an effect that (speaking for myself) changes your life significantly in a way rather difficult to put into mere words.

That would presumably explain the lack of dysfunctional families in this country When a baby is born presumably parents get sprinkled with the X-Y factor.
I feel I'm kinda out on a limb here, so let me help you get a handle on me. I spend various times during my week interacting with problem teenagers and supposedly giving them the insight of what a male role model should be. These kids have the full gamit of dysfunctions, usually (but not totally) brought about by the upbringing they have received, again usually at the hands of dysfunctionsl parents.
Some of these kid's disappear from the groups I'm dealing with because.... they get pregnant! Most of the time to teenage boys within the group and so the cycle begins again.
Steve, I'm sorry I just don't buy into this parent Epiphiny theory. I love my family, if I could do anything to help or protect my family I would. It is'nt the exclusive right of parents. If that were the case my workload would be considerably lighter. I shall not contribute to this topic further.
Charlie

I find it best to form my opinion of how families operate by observing the ones that are there for me to see. On this end, things look pretty encouraging from that perspective.

Anyone who looks to statistics and the world's airwaves to form that sort of opinion is welcome to, but that's just not for me.

My interest is to preserve families. Children are a big part of that.

Want to make sure those twenty somethings feel like they are a part of something, even when the world shuns them. A family can do that, when nothing else seems to work.

Dear Mike,

My perspective will be seen in the earlier part of the thread. Noting the situation, talking to a great accademic in 1973 as a 12 year old, and concluding even at that age the situation was f .. cucked. For this gentle man of words and science to agree was enough for me.

I have family [by my brother, a nephew of 17 shortly and a niece of 19, currently at University], and I wish them all the best of luck, but personal experience stands as nothing beside the scientific evidence that we are rapidly finishing off the finite rescources of God's Earth.

I am about two thirds of the way through the thing called life.

No way could I condemn offspring to face the mess that 200 years of Industrial Revolution has brought us to.

Who would have thought that the atmospheric engine would spell disaster!

ATB from George

This concept of parental epiphanies and the notion that somewhow procreating has a noble purpose is bizarre. The evidence I see is that parents have no special insight, nor motivation into the the best way forward for the human race. Quite the contrary, simply choosing to procreate irrefutably causes environmental harm and whilst it may satisfy the desires of the parents, it harms the future for everyone else.

As the planet crumbles under the load, the net effect of every new child is negative. It may be "good" for the parents, but the sum of all the negative effects on everyone and everything else swamps this benefit. This is the problem; we internalise the benfits - "oh we decided that we WANTED children - it fulfils us. They're so much fun. They love me etc" - but ignores or at least externalises the costs and consequences - "What's the government going to do about all this climate change? I'm stuck in traffic again trying to get my spawn to school in my SUV. Why can't all these people get out of my way? I can't afford a house near the city because the bankers are paid too much."

The negative consequences of population growth are always someone else's fault, and for someone else to fix. But woe-betide anyone that suggest that somehow our indiviual choices are wrong: "Don't you dare tell me what to do! It's my right to pop out as many resource-raping, screaming shit machines as I see fit. In fact, god told me to! Now piss off.".

There is no solution. Go for it. Breed to your hearts' content. It's your right. Glad I won't be around to see it all go wrong. Resource wars on a scale unimaginable. Human suffering that will make the situation sub-saharan Africa pale into insignificance.

Have a nice day.

What lovely sentiments illuminate this thread as Christmas approaches.

There is an interesting divide here though.

Those who think the world is destined for very bad times, and those that don't.

I've never believed the 'these are the latter days' line...climate is a huge issue, but resources I don't see as a worry...at all. What are we talking? Water - for some ok, fossil fuels - don't care in the slightest, energy - I can't see it, land - an issue, but the growth is in areas with very high density, food - I've never seen any evidence at all...so where is it going to go wrong? Lifestyles will change, but that's not a bad thing.

Sorry folks...I just don't buy it. The future will be great (for the lucky)...I know I'm looking forward to it.

It's funny, folk won't believe in climate change - where a wealth of evidence exist, but they will believe in some kind of doom laden future prophesy for which there is no evidence.

Far from seeing humans as shit machines Winky, I see them as marvelous creatures, with the odd exception. I'll take a good mate over a thousand 555's anyday.

Why stop at children?

What about they old? They consume lots of services.

Who gets to decide?

Anthropologically speaking the only thing that every generation of mankind, across the planet, is likely to have had in common - and evidence suggests that all did - is looking back on the past with nostalgia ('good old days') and to the future with optimism ('brave new world').

Quite why people are never prepared to accept that the present is any good is a mystery, but it seems that this is the way we are. As today is yesterday's future, maybe we should learn not to be so pessimistic the whole time.

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:
This concept of parental epiphanies and the notion that somewhow procreating has a noble purpose is bizarre. The evidence I see is that parents have no special insight, nor motivation into the the best way forward for the human race. Quite the contrary, simply choosing to procreate irrefutably causes environmental harm and whilst it may satisfy the desires of the parents, it harms the future for everyone else.

As the planet crumbles under the load, the net effect of every new child is negative. It may be "good" for the parents, but the sum of all the negative effects on everyone and everything else swamps this benefit. This is the problem; we internalise the benfits - "oh we decided that we WANTED children - it fulfils us. They're so much fun. They love me etc" - but ignores or at least externalises the costs and consequences - "What's the government going to do about all this climate change? I'm stuck in traffic again trying to get my spawn to school in my SUV. Why can't all these people get out of my way? I can't afford a house near the city because the bankers are paid too much."

The negative consequences of population growth are always someone else's fault, and for someone else to fix. But woe-betide anyone that suggest that somehow our indiviual choices are wrong: "Don't you dare tell me what to do! It's my right to pop out as many resource-raping, screaming shit machines as I see fit. In fact, god told me to! Now piss off.".

There is no solution. Go for it. Breed to your hearts' content. It's your right. Glad I won't be around to see it all go wrong. Resource wars on a scale unimaginable. Human suffering that will make the situation sub-saharan Africa pale into insignificance.

Rarely do I agree with every word of someone else's post on this forum!

Absolutely, IMO.

ATB from George

quote:

It's funny, folk won't believe in climate change - where a wealth of evidence exist, but they will believe in some kind of doom laden future prophesy for which there is no evidence.

Climate change is going to be the clinch.

If we lost one quarter of the productive land to desertification, even with industrial methods of agriculture with the nitrogen element of plant nutrition coming from oil, then the current population is not sustainable, even in an unsustainable system dependant on fossil fuels!

That is serious in any case ...

ATB from George

Not for the likes of us George. I've never denied that under CC millions will suffer...but those millions will be those (given that this will be gradual) left behind.

I totally agree with the Limits to Growth, but the danger of population explosion is in poor heavily populated areas. Location is critical.

Don't get me wrong, some major problems lie ahead, but life will go on for a very long time yet, and folk who are lucky, will enjoy it.

In fact, the essential thing for the future imo, is the provision of a new generation of well educated and responsible citizens in modern countries...it's an obligation in fact.

Tankards quote of every generation assuming it is the last, is very true I think.

That the poor will always be with us, is very true.

If one has not known what it is to be poor, then it is impossible to conceive it, and this is born out by experience of those whom have not.

I was not born a pessimist, but life has converted me ... At least my fatally flawed genes will not polute the humam gene pool in the future, though many I like less will contribute to it.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by Mat Cork:
Far from seeing humans as shit machines Winky, I see them as marvelous creatures....

It's just the little ones! I'm using cheap hyperbole. Thought the whole thing was getting dull. I'm actually not as negative as I made out.

There is evidence that people can place the collective good above their own self-interest. Maybe this can happen with poulation control. I don't know. Powerful emotional forces come into play when people contemplate reproduction. "We" - the types who read forums, have an option and it is usually a conscious decision. In many parts of the world there is no contemplation - it just happens, or is not optional in a real sense - "We need children to look after us as there is no social system to do so when we get old. And we need lots of them because more than a few will die prematurely".

This makes it hard. The consequences of getting this wrong for our descendants is very bad, but how much does this motivate us? Witness the lack of desire for even rich people to pay full wack for renewable energy. Although we can afford it, we only adpot it when our personal choices are subsidised by others. We'd rather have that new 555 or fly across the world to visit friends.

quote:

I would be the last person to actually want to force [in a position of authority] someone not to have children, but I have no problem letting them have some food for thought on the subject. Of course some people have been known to go off me because I probe a set of thoughts that are certainly not comfortable.

I have no problem with probing minds George, and you most certainly failed to make me remotely 'uncomfortable' but I did (and do find) being told that I am considered to be part of a bunch of <female body parts> for having kids, and being told that I should be prouder NOT to have my children by you to be somewhat rude? Generalisation or not - try walking down Worcester high street tomorrow with a plackard stating what you have in this thread - just don't be to surprised at the reaction you get from families. There are more ways of getting the message across than being like this.

quote:

Dear Mat,

So long as we can keep it polite, then no real harm is done!

ATB from George

You call this 'polite'? :-
I am afraid my view of those who blythely carry on and procreate is unpublishable on the forum, but at the polite end of the scale is something like selfish thoughtless fools, though comparison to person female’s parts is also part of the description

Or to put it in another form - those with kids are selfish, thoughtless fools / <female body parts - presumably genitalia>

Your version of 'polite' and mine vary somewhat I guess.

As for the fact you like kids - congratulations - the fact that they think you are a legend - fantastic.
Now explain to those same children that you think their parents are complete <female body parts> for bringing them into this life & that they should be prouder to have not done so and just watch their reaction to you waver slightly?

Perhaps it's the way it's written or the way I have read it, but it certainly comes across as being exceedingly rude and totally negative on your part.
I simply do not believe that the human race as a whole will not pull itself through. You obviously think it is entirely inevitable that it will fail.
I am neither saying that you (or Charlie) want to impose anything of your thoughts in a way that <China> has - but it certainly comes across that you want something 'similar' (?) to happen - otherwise what?

Charlie - I also have worked with Kids as you describe - and yes, some do go a long way from the rails. Some do, however become very worthwhile members of the comunity - one I have kept in touch with leaves for Afghanistan after Christmas at the tender age of 19 to do what needs to be done out there. Not so long ago he was as good as lost. I guess I look at it as a half full glass - as opposed to half empty. Be proud of what you do - you obviously think they are worth the effort or why would you even try?

George, that's a thin gruel to live off of, loving Bach and Haydn, but having contempt for the people that all music is for.

Bach was a parent many times over, so I know how he feels about things. Just imagine telling him what you have said here.

It is absolutely true that hope springs eternal. Go ahead and drink a draft, George. You'll enjoy life ten fold over.

Dear Steve,

When my nephew and niece were born 17 and 19 years ago. I expressed my view at the time to my brother, who looked ascance and got over it.

I think we are not going to agree about my views, ...

With regard to China, I have not tried to put words into your mouth, and neither have I mentioned population control methods practiced in China. What I would hope for is for people to consider the possibility that biggest single gift they could give towards the sustainable future of the human race would be to desist voluntarily from procreation. In no way does this threaten the future of the human race as it is never going to be universally accepted.

If I express myself, albeit without spelling it out in so many words, and you consider this rude, then I perhaps you might consider that we have met and conversed. If you still think I am being merely rude, then perhaps we have to accept that we are not on the same wavelength at all. I apologise for wasting your time.

Regards from George

The great flaw in your logic though George is that it's based on an inverted consideration of the issue. In your scenario, what we would have is the lucky and bright folk of this world, witholding their genes, whilst the poor and uneducated carry on regardless - a recipe for disaster.

The actual solution is simple, we need an informed and well balanced generation in the modern world, to help to address the issues that may emerge as the less fortunate populations continue to explode.

As I've said, imo, if you're fortunate to have a good head, some relative wealth and you're well informed...you owe it to the world to help provide a generation that will be of use tomorrow. It's an obligation.

Funnily enough I spent Tue and Wed of this week at the 'Sea Change' Conference in London (which was excellent - looking at sustainable seas around Europe). From a very well educated/informed audience, discussing the future, the role of the next generation was often mentioned as being key.

Dear Mat,

I may very well be wrong, but my view is that we have already left it too late. The next generatrion do not stand a chance of fixing what our generation cannot. It is our generation which has to set the future course starting this very year, and there is absolutely no sign that this is going to happen immediately or even soon enough IMO.

My view is that my putative offspring would face insummountable problems and disaster, where being advantaged and reasonably well educated [as would stem them growing up in the affluent developed world] would be no advantage at all. I am also sure that my genetic contribution would be a bad, not a good, thing for them!

That is how bleakly I see the future.

Dear Mike,

The music is my refuge from the madness of it all. I have two solaces; one of which is music and the other is the friendship of a small group of completely trusted people. The truth is that my friends all know my view on this and have remained friends in any case.

Best wishes from George

George,
No, we probably will not reach an agreement on your / my views, but that matters not - this is merely a forum in which we may contribute our thoughts & opinions.

I do hope that you can see an ocean of difference though between what you now type:-

quote:

What I would hope for is for people to consider the possibility that biggest single gift they could give towards the sustainable future of the human race would be to desist voluntarily from procreation.

from what you were quoted on thinking way back.
I'm willing to bet that if you went into various pubs and said to guys with families in there what I quoted you on you would leave most of them with a great smack to the mouth.
Now if you went into the same places and put to them what you have written above then the response would be entirely different, even if the sentiment is entirely the same.
Perhaps the 'rude / offensive' version was done for effect - I neither know nor does it bother me, it was what it was.
I have to admit that I struggle to believe that you told your brother that you thought he was a selfish .....to his face, but more likely said your thoughts as in the above post, but that again matters not.

Not a waste of time - we both see the future in very differnt ways obviously.
To have an outlook as bleak and dark as yours cannot be good though.

quote:

Originally posted by Mat Cork:
The great flaw in your logic though George is that it's based on an inverted consideration of the issue. In your scenario, what we would have is the lucky and bright folk of this world, witholding their genes, whilst the poor and uneducated carry on regardless - a recipe for disaster.

The actual solution is simple, we need an informed and well balanced generation in the modern world, to help to address the issues that may emerge as the less fortunate populations continue to explode.

As I've said, imo, if you're fortunate to have a good head, some relative wealth and you're well informed...you owe it to the world to help provide a generation that will be of use tomorrow. It's an obligation.

Funnily enough I spent Tue and Wed of this week at the 'Sea Change' Conference in London (which was excellent - looking at sustainable seas around Europe). From a very well educated/informed audience, discussing the future, the role of the next generation was often mentioned as being key.

I'm with George in many ways here. An intelligent and affluent individual choosing not to add more bodies to an over-populated planet is not irrational. The 'logical extension' of this decision; to envisage a planet only populated by the offspring of the poor and needy is absurd, we know that would not happen. Affluent and motivated people will still choose to reproduce even if I do not.

It does not seem unreasonable to me that you might consider the legacy your potential offspring will inherit as being clouded by uncertainty, and for this to influence your decisions about being a parent.

The key is surely to allow all to consider parenting as a choice, and to equip individuals withe ths skills and resources to manage that choice. Allowing people that choice, both to be able to parent well, and to be able to control unwanted conception, is the only way to manage the population of our planet.

Bruce

quote:

The key is surely to allow all to consider parenting as a choice, and to equip individuals withe ths skills and resources to manage that choice. Allowing people that choice, both to be able to parent well, and to be able to control unwanted conception, is the only way to manage the population of our planet.

Hi Bruce,
Again I quote from the documentary on Tuesday evening.
What you state in the above quote has been put into practice in countries like India & Rwanda, and surprise surprise - it works.
The key point as you say is choice and equiping them with the knowledge that they need.
If you have not seen it then please look it out on iPlayer.
Every point raised in this thread is shown and it's outcome along with a few we have yet to get to.
It also showed that the future is not all doom and gloom - with the proviso that something is done - which most of us know absolutely must happen.

There's no doubt that in terms of a sustainable future, we are already over-populated. There is some very interesting data on the optimum population website. This should be of interest to people on both sides of the debate.

Trev