Joy Division poll

Side 2 (in vinyl speak) of Closer is, for me, the most perfect 'side' of music ever recorded. Violence, sadness, euphoria, hope, despair and lots of stuff I don't even have words for - all in just 4 songs.
Must give it a listen tonight - thanks for giving me the idea!
Rich

I agree Rich. Although (again, in vinyl speak) I've never been entirely sure which side is which.

Bhoyo

I meant the side with "Heart & Soul", "24 Hours", "The Eternal" and "Decades". (Christ, just typing the titles has got me going...!)
Didn't get chance to listen tonight unfortunately - promise myself I will later this week.

Rich

I just don't get it. I've listened to these guys a number of times, and they've always seemed exceedingly underwhelming.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Mike, I guess you had to be there...

I was lucky enough to see them play live, the sound was extremely raw and the songs had an intensity never matched by anyone else I've ever seen.

Ian Curtis' suicide was the first time I'd really been affected by someone's demise but listening to the songs afterwards, the signs were there.

Both "Unknown Pleasures" and "Closer" bring a lump to my throat when I play them (not often enough, Mrs S doesn't get them at all.)

Sadly, New Order never scaled the same heights.

I agree with Rich and Bhoyo - Side 2 of Closer is about as close to perfection as you can get (Heart & Soul is also my fave JD song). The production, by the genius Mr Hannett, is awesome, the songs are superb, the performances untouchable... even the running order is top-notch. Here is the sound of a world, already at low energy levels, gradually coming to a halt, ending in a kind of absolute zero stasis at the ed of "Decades". This really is art of the highest order. If you don't believe me, give the records a spin!

Like Seagull, I was lucky enough to see JD (twice). Of all the bands I've seen that are no longer with us, JD are the ones I feel most privileged about having seen. I listen to the records (Closer and Pleasures mostly) on average about once a week, and still get more out of them than justabout anything else - and that's after two decades' constant listening.

I can't agree with Seagull's New Order comments though - they occasionally HAVE scaled the same heights, though in a completely different way. Unfortunately that very poor album they made in 2001 (the likes of Bobby Gillespie and that bald twat Billy Corgan are completely inadequate replacements for the mighty Gillian) has tarnished their reputation a little. aving said that, I believe that taken together, the body of work created by Joy Division and New Order is probably unrivalled outside that of the Beatles. IM(less than) HO.

Kevin

Thanx Kevin.
It takes something like this to pull those album off the shelf and go there again. Nice one.

Is Monaco the 3rd generation of JD and New Order? What was the name of the 2001 album and was it actually a New Order release?

quote:

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Originally posted by seagull:
Mike, I guess you had to be there...

Both "Unknown Pleasures" and "Closer" bring a lump to my throat

---

Not neccessarily - I was 5 when Ian hung himself, and the only song I ever knew of theirs until 1991 was "Love will tear us apart". Then I heard "She's lost control"...

I only own the abovementioned two albums (the former only on CD, the latter only on vinyl) and they are excellent - I've only played Closer once (bought VERY recently) and it's quite a weird listen - Unknown Pleasures was much more instantly accessible, but both albums are ecellent musically. I personally like Unknown Pleasures more, but the sleeve of Closer is way nicer!

If I get my Rega back tomorrow (hope hope) I'll give Closer another spin over the weekend

When the music's over turn out the lights

PS - I LOVE substance as it has "Transmission" on - one of the funkest rock basslines I've heard, and the bit in 24 hour party people with that track on is my favourite - it really fits in with the unrest and strikes

Oh - on CD prices (another thread) - for Unknown Pleasures - 10.99 in HMV, 4.99 in FOPP. Beautifully f***ing illustrated!

When the music's over turn out the lights

dometc

Get to hear "Atmosphere".

I think it is a wonderful track, John Peels' single of the year in about 1876 or so.

The covers to U.P. and particularly "Closer" are also works of art in their own right.

Regards

Mike

I think JD should be praised as a singles band more than an album band.

If you trace through the singles from "Warsaw" through to "Atomsphere", there are nearly all classics.

As regards IC, I still clearly remember buying the NME in the week of his suicide with the headline "THIS MAN DIED FOR YOU". Not quite sute about that?

I would recommend the book version of 24 hour party people by Anthony Wilson. It covers the issues with candour, and shows IC as a troubled and flawed human, but perhaps a genius as well.

As for New Order, you have to admit that they have made some good, bad and indifferent stuff. The first 3 LPs, O.K, 4th & 5th a bit dull, then I gave up on them. And then the football song - oh dear! Still, they have carved their name in the rock of the history of rock / dance with "Blue Monday", and that means you can forgive them a lot. I mean, if it is good enough for Kylie to cover and Hardfloor to remix, it's good enough to me.

Kevin , do you have any recording by the Stiff Kittens ?

DS

ITC - pot cycl - ion

David

i don't have anything by Stiff Kittens myself, but I believe some rehearsal tapes are in existence (which are apparently in hooky's possessiion); SK never actually played a gig, the band making their live debut aas Warsaw. There was a boootleg doing the rounds about 20 years ago called "Try To Cure Yourself" which was attributed to Stiff Kittens, but which was in fact just JD material.
I agree with you about JD being an absolute classic singles band, though - as NO were from 1981 through till '85.

The IC "this Man Died For You" cover was in fact the infamous Sounds feature written by Dave McCullough. NME did a more sobre cover, but the 10-odd page article inside, by Paul Morley and others, was almost as fulsome/over the top (depending on your point of view).

By far tthe bbest book about Curtis and the JD era is "Touching From a Distance" by IC's widow, Deborah (Faber & Faber). It's a very raw, unflinching biography of a very complex, but immensely charismatic and talented, individual.

As for NO's side projects, there's Hooky's Revenge (1989–94) and Monaco (1996-?), the latter being far more impressive - both their albums are well worth a listen (sorry I disagree, Alex); Stevee and Gillian's the Other Two are charming, if a little inconsequential (two albums, the first, "The Other Two & You" being far better than the second, "Super Highways". The most commercially successful of these offshoots was of course Electronic, who IMHO were totally over-rated. The singles "Getting Away With It" and "Disappointed" were both superb, the first album mediocre (with the exception of the exquisite "Some Distant Memory", which is possibly the 9th Best Song Of All Time), the third album poor and the second unmitigated crap.

As for NO's albums, the heirachy is

1. Technique (89)
2. Power, Corruption & Lies (83)
3. Brotherhood (86)
4. Movement (81)
5. Republic (93)
6. Low-life (85)
7. Get Ready (01)

all the compilations aare OK, esp "Substance", but avoid like the plague "The Rest Of New Order" which consists oof half-arsed remixes by idiot DJs.

Kevin

I was going to mention Retro, but I though I'd better not as I did some work on it (ie provided the live material and outtakes/mixes).

Glad to see that someone else likes the very underrated "Brotherhood"

Kevin

Alex

As for the songs, today they would be (I will probably change my mind s I'm very fickle:

JD - Heart & Soul
NO - Regret
Ad-Libs - The Boy From New York City
Flamingos - I Only Have Eyes For You
Can - You Doo Right
Led Zep - No Quarter (live)
Kraftwerk - It's More Fun To Compute
Duke Ellington & Orchestra - Things Ain't What They Used To Be (version from the late 50s with a superb JOhnny Hodges solo)

Kevin

Kevin's top 9

Wot!?

No Wire / A Certain Ratio / Throbbing Gristle / Caberet Voltaire / Anything after 1990 / Tangerine Dream / Kylie / Donna Summer?

I call for a recount!

Would the list have been the same a year ago ? 10 years ago ?

DS

ITC - The Rapture - I need your love

Well this thread got me listening to both Unknown Pleasures and Closer last night, something I'd not done for at least 10 years. Unknown Pleasures gets my vote for at least having a bit more variation. The production still stands out - what happened to Martin Hannett?

David

David

The list's changed already (but as I said, I'm fickle). I tend to think that the last thing I heard is the Greatest Thing Ever. Strangely enough, I was listening to Wire last night - I found a (crap) old tape of that Peel session they did in '79 - do you remember, when they filled up their entire 15 minutes' allocation with one long improvised piece? Can you get it on vinyl or CD? Wire's first three albums are among my faves. Also bougt TG's "First Annual report" yesterday - an Italian bootleg I presume.
Can't agree with you about Kylie, though - she's crap!

Ged
I don't like Low-Life, for me it's a terrible, convential comedown after the glories of 1980-83; New Order's grey period. Loads of people rate it, but I just can't see it. "Perfect Kiss" is great, but only makes sense in its nine-minute glory, not in the truncated version here. "Sunrise" and "This Time Of Night" are both fine, gutsy songs, "Love Vigilantes" is just flabby and twee, "Elegia" a bit boring but OK, "Sub-Culture" and "Face Up" are truly abysmal, the worst things they recorded (at least until Republic and Get ready came out!). Musically it's their least interesting LP (the guitar-based conservatism of Get Ready excepted), lyrically a ot of it truly cringeworthy.NO are like any other group - when they care (whether they're happy or unhappy) they matter. When they don't care, as they did between late '84 and mid '86, thery're terrible.
I remember going to the gig you mention myself, but you'll notice from your tape insert that there are far more songs from Brotherhood. Brotherhood is light years ahead of Low-Life, especially for the sublime second side. And if you want to hear Hooky's bass roar, try "All Day Long"!

Kevin

(PS Will try Low-Life again tonite though)

David H-M

Martin Hannett was indeed a genius. Unfortunately he liked booze and drugs a bit too much, and died in (I think) 1994. I met him once, in the late 80s, and was quite a scary individual.

His best work was undoubtedly with Joy Division (he produced all material from 1978's A FACTORY SAMPLE onwards), but other ace production jobs included:
MAGAZINE - The Correct Use Of Soap + accompanying singles (1980)
THE DURUTTI COLUMN - The Return Of The Durutti Column (1979)
A CERTAIN RATIO - The Graveyard side of The Graveyard & The Ballroom (1979)
A CERTAIN RATIO - Flight 12" (maginificent, one of the greatest records ever made - do you agree Mr Slater?) (1980)
A CERTAIN RATIO - To each (1981)
NEW ORDER - Ceremony (green sleeve 12") (1981)
NEW ORDER - Everything's Gone Green (12" - again, a production tour de force) (1981)
JOHN COOPER CLARKE - Psycle Sluts EP (1978)
BUZZCOCKS - Spiral Scratch EP (1976)
SECTION 25 - Always Now (1981)
HAPPY MONDAYS - Bummed (1988)
JILTED JOHn - Jilted John (1978)

Kevin

ACR - Flight, Yup one of thier best, with Knife Slits water , Waterline and others.

Wire - I suspect that piece was '"The Drill", which was their rare "piss off I want to go home" encore

It is available vinylistically as on 'The Drill' and in part on "Snakedrill"

TG - I have that 1st annual report as well, and 2nd and 3rd & final and dozens more!

Have you got the new Kirk mixes of Nag Nag Nag yet? I think I ordered it direct from Mute, but not sure.

but all pale in the majestic light the Kylie shines on the whole pop music world.

DS

OTD Choose - Crucial Events

Crispy Ambulance

Were often accused of being a watered-down JD (like fellow-Fac-ers Section 25), but they werea darn fine group in their own right.

I used to love 'em, went to see them a couple of times, and have a big collection of vinyl, tapes, boots and CDs. They reformed in 1999, but the old magic had gone.

To find out more, go to www.ltmpub.freeserve.co.uk/ltmhome.html

Kevin

I have the new Crispy Ambulance album 'Fin'

It is O.K., but not up to the standard of thier work in the 1980's.

The standout for me was te 12" single 'On a hot August Night'

DS

Fin came out in 1990 and consists of 1981-3 material. Are you sure you don't mean Scissorgun? (not that good) Or the live LP recorded in 1999?

Kevin


But Concorde Square... even Peel was baffled by it!!!

Kevin,

you are right, I did mean 'Scissorgun' as new and not great. I put them both (Scissorgun & Fin) in the car CD changer and must have confused new and old.

DS

ITC - Danni Minogue - Neon Heights

Unknown Pleasures - "New Dawn Fades" did it for me. I have a copy of the purple paper box double cassette Still locked away in a drawer.