Does going active still make sense?

going active will produce significant gains in clarity, intimacy, power, etc... you get more music. i have written about my own experiences on the forum recently so shouldnt be difficult for you to track down the thread, (i think its called kens active system or something)...

however, if you are looking for a perfect system, i dont believe it exists. compared to live music, there is still a way to go, but the illusion is quite strong nevertheless...

if you have a chance, and time, it would be very interesting/useful for you to audition these various options and to report your own findings here...

enjoy

ken

The local Naim dealer doesn't carry the equipment so I can't even hear what active 135s sound like.

I will search for your thread but have you done any of these comparisons. My basic concern is if any step brings anything negative? I don't want to start the active route if there isn't system satisfaction at the first step and I am pushed to adding a highcap or supercap. For example does it get more dynamic at the first stage but you don't receive the smoothness until you get a supercap in?

John

my 1st step was to go active with hicap driving the snaxo. assuming all your components are working ok(they are now, right?) then prepare to be completely overwhelmed by this. the only "negative" is that the system becomes much more revealing -- so you may hear defects in the performances you hadnt heard before... but to me, this just confirms that you have humans playing (in most cases???) -- so this is a positive. also, it becomes much easier to assess installation effects.

when you power the snaxo with supercap, yet another layer of music is revealed. the sound stage is reconfigured to give more space to individual instruments. you hear more. you have a better cd player than i have (upgrading to cdsii soon), but i found i could play cd's at a higher volume, 11 oclock, without discomfort.

the problems i have had on the road to active in my case have been very "local". right now, i am trying to sort out why my new naim plugs sound more musical, but a bit "dirty" in the treble. maybe soldered plugs also need to warm up -- dunno.

i am visiting infidelity tomorrow to select a cartridge for my lp12, which is there for reset. i will ask then to look at my NAC5's while there.

so, i believe you will not be disappointed going active. in fact, i think your experience will be better than mine with cds1 and 135's, unless you mind the extra boxes. it is a real pity that you dont have a local dealer, because at the stage you are and the upgrade you are contemplating -- a passive 500, from what i hear from people here, is a mandatory audition.

hope this is useful

enjoy

ken

I have heard active and the 500 and I can confirm that the 500 makes speakers fly like you would not believe! The difference is in the output transistor technology where the 500 does not need the protection circuitry normally in Naim's amps. The reason that dealers don't stock the active systems anymore is because of the 500. Also passive cross-overs are much better than they used to be. Listen for yourself because some people I know with active systems do prefer these because they feel different and it's what the're comfortable with.

John

Active systems improve over passive systems in many many ways. There usually isn't a negative as such. The distortion present in the active crossover is measured at about ten times less than that in a passive crossover, and this was one of the main reasons cited for the benefits of active operation. Another benefit was that active systems are relatively tunable thanks to the pots in the SNAXO.

As I mentioned earlier, there isn't really a downside to going active as such. However, bear in mind the reasons for going active: distortion and tuneability. The passive system can't be tuned, so this remains a benefit of active over passive operation (and could be the solution in awkward - typically bass-heavy - rooms).

Distortion was measured purely on the crossover. All things being equal (135s etc), the only place where one could make a big difference was in the active crossover. However, with the advent of the 500, all things aren't equal. The 500 has lower distortion levels, higher slew rate, and uses much much faster output devices than present in the 20-year-old 135.

Going active with 135s brings many benefits over standard 135s, but it doesn't fix the inherent faults in the 135 design. There are even some who say that you're simply multiplying the problems (though I don't hold with that view). The traditional Naim customer is one who appreciates improvements in pace, rhtyhm and timing over most other hifi aspects such as soundstage, space and detail. The 500 does more of the hifi stuff, but it also improves dramatically on the pace, rhythm and timing aspects of the system - improvements that you don't get by going active, and this is why it has been so successful. If you think about it, in the past this has been the argument of waiting until at least a 250 (preferably 135s) before going active. There were still some who preferred the 140 active scenario to the 250 passive one, but they were few.

Don't get me wrong. Improving the distortion in the crossover by going active is still a good thing and yes, we do have an active 500 SBL owner who is blissfully happy, but the Naim bang for buck ratio remains more than intact with the 500 and proves (to me certainly) that in the source-first hierarchy, the power amp comes before the crossover.

Regards,
Frank.

Where do you get your naim equipment? I live across teh river in Windsor and shop at Audio Two, but there is no 500 on demo. Where do you stateside folks get your naim in Michigan?

daveV

Ron The Mon

Your 1st post gave the first upgrade steps as :-

Passive ---> Active
Passive ---> Active + Hicap

Does the NAXO or SNAXO need an external power supply (Hi-Cap; SuperCap)or can it be run alone, adding hicap/supercap as an optional upgrade ?

I am interested in your thread because I have a very similar front end to yours (up to the speakers) and am likewise wondering what would be the best step to take next.

The very limited listening I have done to active systems (mainly 2x250 into SBL and 6x135 into Isobariks and NBLs) has left me 'feeling' that the bass end is a bit 'light'; tuneful, fast, detailed etc, but 'light'. I also felt that some of the 'emotion' had been lost from many cd/lp but perhaps this was less distortion (where distortion = anything not on the original master tape) Perhaps ken c could comment ?

Cheers

Don

it is definitely NOT my experience that active operations robs some music of its emotion. if this were the case, i would have stayed well clear of it. in my description of the bottom end, the word "light" would not feature at all. in fact, quite the opposite is true -- the bass if much more securely positioned and asserts itself emphatically while remaining highly musical all the time.

of course, i have to accept that other people's experiences may be different, but as for me, active is the only way to go. i am told i might change my mind with nap500, but fortunately(?) cant afford that right now...

enjoy

ken

quote:

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The very limited listening I have done to active systems (mainly 2x250 into SBL and 6x135 into Isobariks and NBLs) has left me 'feeling' that the bass end is a bit 'light'; tuneful, fast, detailed etc, but 'light'

---

Don,

this has not been my experience at all.

The bass with six-pack Isobariks is a little leaner, but is much more informative, more powerful and much deeper.

In fact, better inevery way.

This is compared to passive drive with 2x135s and 4x135s.

cheers, Martin

Many thanks for your comments, they have provided enough incentive to put an active system back in the 'frame'

The simplest way forward is to sell the 135s and buy the 500, it sounded superb at Grahams a few months back. Net outlay around £8,000 - need to keep saving!

The least expensive is to sell the 135s and buy a 2nd hand Krell fpb300, a KSA100s sounded superb at Audio Excellence in Cardiff a couple of years ago . Net outlay around £3,000 and very little depreciation.

The most dificult is to add a SNAXO/supercap and another pair of 135s, all second hand, and hope I can get them to drive the Watt/Puppies (or else i'm back into the speaker market again!). Net outlay around £5,000 and again very little depreciation. [Just thought - I have a recently serviced 250 plus some NACA4 doing nothing, so I could try the active route with a SNAXO/supercap driving 1x250 plus pr 135s for perhaps less than £2,500.]

Martin - just a shlightish worry - you say 'bass with six-pack Isobariks is a little leaner' Perhaps that's what I had in mind when I used the word 'light'. Its devilish difficult to find the right words sometimes to really accurately describe a musical experience. [Come to think of it, there probably wouldn't be much point in the music if it was that easy to describe it in words, Beethoven would have just written the book 'Eroica' instead of his 3rd symphony] Anyway, John in his original post was concerned to avoid ANY downside to an active system, even if it was just transient whilst 'making do' with a hicap powered NAXO awaiting the full blown SNAXO/supercap, so I though i'd just mention it in passing between the last Remy Martin & Mark Knopfler and the next Remy Martin & Paul Simon Is it worth clarifying, or am I getting a just little bit too neurotic?

Cheers

Don

[This message was edited by Don Atkinson on SATURDAY 02 June 2001 at 23:15.]

on snaxo/supercap: honestly, you can start with snaxo/hicap and it will amply demonstrate the active benefit. the supercap just adds another notch, quite a significant one though -- but you certainly dont have to swallow that in one go.

if i am to believe what i am hearing about nap500, then all this talk about active with 135's etc, is a worthless proliferation of black boxes... (i exaggerate for dramatic effect...)

one of these days, i will ask to hear a 500 properly, not in passing. and driving naim speakers. if i ever felt i was ready for a 500 financially, i would ask for a full active 135's vs passive 500 into sbl's (or successor) demo.

enjoy

ken

Does the SNAXO require a hicap to even operate? Is there anyway my current Supercap (for the 52) can be used?

John

Is there anyway my current Supercap (for the 52) can be used? as far as i know, NO

enjoy

ken

quote:

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Is there anyway my current Supercap (for the 52) can be used?

---

Allan

the SNAIC-5 sockets on the back of the S/C are earthed differently, so you would need to pick the right one.

However, you should be aware that the power feeds to the Burndy & SNAICs are driven from the same voltage regulators, although one pair are not used unless a Prefix is powered through socket 2. Not sure if another pair of regs are freed up if the boards on input one are removed or passive.

If it turns out that the SNAXO is running from the regs which the 52 also uses they will eventually burn out.

Martin

Ron - help !

Allan