Buying Speakers- do we really make totally free choices?

Posted by: Geoff P on 13 September 2003

James who started the thread on "ported vs sealed" wrote this:----

quote:
Interim Results

It is interesting to note that most voters either don't rate the difference between sealed and ported (and some with good reason cos the ported designs they have heard works) or they must absolutely have sealed bass (arguably because they have heard ported speakers that don't work). Curiously, only three people admit to preferring ported boxes because they offer more bass.


James apologies for not replying on the thread but I think this is worth asking as a general question for seperate debate.

I bet a lot of people on this forum have demoed several different model speakers, then chosen and lived with their choice, then become disatisffied, demoed again, swapped and are living with their current "üpgrade"
Behind that though is the probability that they were "pushed" in certain directions because of the speaker makes it was POSSIBLE for them to hear. For a lot of us even if we are prepared to travel significant distances we are limited by the makes of speaker that are to hand within say a 200 mile radius of where we live.
I suspect the guys who save up there pennies and go for NAIM speakers are onto the safest bet. For the rest of us it's a minefield out there.
Over the years I have passed through various economic levels and makes of speaker. I list them with timeframe to identify the design generation of speaker I am talking about. Starting at good old Wharefedale sealed bookshelves (40 years ago variety) then Goodmans ported bookshelves (35 years ago) then Monitor audio floorstanders with passive bass radiator diaphragms instead of ports (20 years ago). Followed by children !!
Then about 3 years ago I ended up with the ubiquitous B&W CM4's (ah well we all make mistakes)floorstanders which have ports at the top AND bottom. Then about a year ago I invested in the Totem's (isobarik ported).
All the way through I was tempted by the sound, there was no concsious attention to design. I am happy looking back from where I am and I believe I was happy with what I had each time I chose until economic circumstances and time brought change.
Looking back I have to admit the local availability in the guy down the road's alladin's cave of HiFi reduced the decsicion making trauma to what speaker models he stocked.

So question, and please allow that I am talking about Choices in the price range you could afford at he the time when answering?
How many of us do we think really had a completely free choice when we bought speakers?
AND
How many of us ended up with a particular make of speaker because it came out "best" to our ears regardless of design, FROM THE LIMITED RANGE of makes we were able to hear both in the "local" shops or at friends?

regards
GEOFFP
Posted on: 13 September 2003 by Tuan
B&W805 (Matrix) on Reference Target stands filled with lead shots. Natural sounding, coherence but a bit lack of resolution. Solid build, good price when new (2000 Canadian dollars) and even better price when used (1000 Canadian dollars). It is hard to find s/h since lot of people want them.
Posted on: 13 September 2003 by JohanR
quote:
Behind that though is the probability that they were "pushed" in certain directions because of the speaker makes it was POSSIBLE for them to hear.


Yes, of course! And that applies to all my HiFi. There might be loads of stuff out there that I never heard, or even heard of, that's sounds better than my current setup. That's something I have to live with...

Remember, most people have never heard of Naim.

JohanR
Posted on: 13 September 2003 by Arthur Bye
James wrote:
quote:
The problem with loudspeakers is that they really need to be demo'd in situ before you really know if they work for you.


Geoff:

James' above comment is basically what I have lived by when buying speakers for the past 20+ years. The problem with in store demos is that they just tell you about 80% of what a speaker does. More importantly though, it tells you almost nothing about what it is going to screw up. You don't get to find that out until you get home. Sometimes even then you don't hear it. I've always figured it takes about 6 weeks to get the sound of the speaker sorted out. You have to wait until the excitement of the new purchase glow wears off and you can be more objective about the sound. You also have to spend countless hours moving them around too.

We've all bought speakers based on a store demo. Invariably you find that some speakers are all wrong and you write them off. I've actually returned sets of new speakers and swapped them for the naff ones only to find out the naff ones were better. Linn Kans are a good example of this. More often than not Kans are set up wrong and sound like the worlds worst bookshelf speaker in the store.

I really don't have the time to go and listen to every set of speakers and every store in town. More than half the time they're set up wrong anyhow. It's also pretty near impossible to get a proper in-store demo.

My solution to this has been to go the used route and to rely heavily on reviews. If I can buy a set of used speakers, try it out for a while, and re-sell it at the same price, my overall costs will be minimal. Relying on reviews of course has its drawbacks. It takes a while to know which reviewers have hearing that matches your own. Unfortunately for me most reviewers have decided Round Earth tendencies as well.

I've easily been through 30 pairs of speakers in the past many years. A good third or more of them were either Stereophile A or B rated. Most all are gone. UPS/FedEx has benefitted much as a result.

This has been the only way that I have been able to get a broad picture of all the speakers available out there. Even doing it this way I can still think of about 20 or more different speakers out there that I'd really like to get a good listen to though.

Arthur Bye
Posted on: 13 September 2003 by andy c
Interesting thread.
I purchased my SBL's some 3 or so years ago, after commiting the cardinal sin of relying on shop demo's. I tried all sorts of speaker on the end of the Naim system I had, but in various dealers, in a narrowing down process.
In my previous address they did sound better than the B&W P4 they replaced, but they had no bass! This was poss due to a suspended wooden floor.
I moved house, to one with a concrete floor, and again there was an improvement, but still they were bass light.
I took a very recent change of CD player to actually get near to what i thought should be acceptable bass.
So, Why stick with the SBL's? To this day I have no idea, really... other than I convinced myself they would cope with any improvement that I did further up the chain.
I also think that it just becomes an urge to change some part of your kit sometimes - upgraditis - and it keeps hi-fi shops in business...
Posted on: 13 September 2003 by Geoff P
Ahh, James
Your suggestion to take up DIY is good in principle and if I could only approach your level of skill in woodworking and design and construction I can see how worthwhile it would be. Alas I just don't have it, maybe you should sell kits for the hopeless such as myself.
In the meantime we will have to pay the exhorbitant price demanded by the OEM's for halfway decent construction.

Arthur
I do agree with what you say and have done the "trust the reviews" thing. I must admit to a feeling that John Atkinson is a reliable guide in Stereophile particulalrly because he "listens" really hard as a result of his recording expertise. In fact it was his opinion which lead me to purchase my current speakers (Totem Mani 2's) which I am pretty happy with. For know anyway!! until the next upgrade itch comes along.

Andy
Actually your point is interesting and I am sure moving house has this effect for a lot of HiFi nuts. Sometimes it gets better sometimes it gets worse. Maybe we should have a clause in the house purchase contract "subject to my HiFi kit working superbly in the living room" then we could always withdraw from the purchase when it did'nt.

regards
GEOFFP
Posted on: 13 September 2003 by Mr_Sukebe
I think you're right that market forces tend to dictate just what we're going to listen to.

At the moment, it's clearly rather difficult to even find a non-ported lower priced speaker.

I think that one of the most useful things I've done recently was to go and visit some other fellow hi-fi owners and listen to their kit.
That has given me the option to pick through a number of thoughts I've had about what I'm personally trying to achieve, after that, it helped me to "tune" my own system, mainly via room acoustics. Additionally, it gives me a benchmark for "what I think is damn good", for when I do go to a dem at a dealer.

For example, I listened to a 12k SACD system yesterday, and both myself and wife were completely underwhelmed. My own meagre system frankly pastes it in a number of areas, despite costing me 1/6th of the amount (although a good deal was second hand). So I'd now recommend that people go listen to other systems in peoples homes, great way to learn.
Posted on: 14 September 2003 by John G.
"Actually, it's difficult to find non-ported new loudspeakers at any price."

ATC makes a couple worth checking out, the SCM 7 and 12 both have sealed enclosures.

Posted on: 14 September 2003 by quickie
You beat me to it John.... Wink

Paul.
Posted on: 14 September 2003 by quickie
ATC SCM35.Two grands worth of 35 litre sealed box.Not heard them myself but look interesting.

Paul.
Posted on: 14 September 2003 by Arthur Bye
Hey, aren't the Linn Komri's sealed box?

Arthur Bye
Posted on: 15 September 2003 by Andrew L. Weekes
quote:
I wonder why Naim don't make a stand-mount?


I've always thought that the area wasted in the stand is far more usefully used as part of the speakers, if it brings with it performance benefits.

I suspect the fixed costs of building a small speaker with a suitable stand, vs. a slightly larger one without are probably not too different, and internal volume, all else being equal, brings bass extension.

Andy.
Posted on: 15 September 2003 by Markus S
Yes, but it can also f*** up the midrange, certainly on 2-ways. With most such floorstanders, the bass/mid driver is mounted towards the top of the cabinet. It needs to be as the driver gets a little directional towards the top of the passband and might sound cloured when mounted near the floor.

You the have the bass/mid driver working into a pipe, which will often give weird effects for midrange sounds reflected back from the cabinet through the membrane.

I thinkg Naim's approach of letting only bass frequencies feed into the lower part of the cabinet is excellent for keeping those reflections away.

What you still do get is reflections from the back wall of the cabinet. If you want to avoid these, you need free space mounting or an egg- or sphere shaped mid enclosure such as seen on the top Nautili; I'm not sure they have enough volume, though.