First Symphonies
Posted by: Tam on 01 September 2005
Following on from Fredrik's example, let's have some suggestions for what I, at least, consider the cornerstone of classical music: the symphony.
An excellent place to start is Beethoven. These days there are an awful lot of good, and fairly cheap sets of Beethoven symphonies. Fortunately the best is probably also the cheapest. Sir Charles Mackerras and the RLPO deliver stunning accounts, full of excitement and tension (I can listen to the set time and again and still the interpretations surprise me and show me new things), and it's on emi's classics for pleasure label so it just costs £15 for the 5 disc set. I've got eleven complete sets, and so far Sir Charles has beaten all comers comfortably. Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra also offer a good set (they were a stunning combination) and the set is out at reasonable price (probably around £30 if you shop around) on sony's lavishly packaged 'original jacket' label. Jochum's budget cycle is also pretty good as is Furtwangler's (though the sound quality on numbers 2 and 8 is awful, and the Furtwangler approach isn't for everyone).
Schubert. 5, 8 and 9 are my favourites and I have two good double cd sets containing these. Solti and the VPO are very fine as is Charles Mackerras with the OAE (I think the first recording of the 9th on period instruments). Sir Charles's version is of a finished version of the unfinished 8th.
Haydn. Broadly speaking, the best symphonies are the later ones (from the mid 80s onwards). Personally, I really love Bernstein's Haydn, I think he makes the music sound particularly joyful (especially on his Vienna Philharmonic recordings on DG). That said, I'd like complete sets of the London and Paris symphonies, so if anyone has good recommendations, I'm all ears.
Mozart. Broadly speaking, again, the later symphonies are the best, especially 40 and 41 (and here the Bernstein/VPO recording is especially fine). All Sir Charles Mackerras's recordings with the Prague Chamber Orchestra are also excellent (in particular how good a result he gets with the very early symphonies, which can be a little repetitive if done badly).
Brahms. Perhaps not ideal for starting out, but some great symphonic writing. Sir Charles Mackerras (again, sorry, but he's really good!) has an outstanding set with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra (interesting because he uses a smaller orchestra than normal, although like the one Brahms himself used). I'm still looking for a good set with a big orchestra, Haitink's recent LSO live cycle, while cheap, is disappointing (though the second is excellent) as is Bernstein with the VPO (except for number 4) so I'd appreciate recommendations. I'm told the Abbado cycle is good, but it isn't cheap.
Mahler. Not necessarily for everyone, and perhaps not a good place for starting off. However, I think the 4th symphony is very accessible and the classic Szell/Cleveland recording is one nobody should be without. Symphony 1 is also fairly 'easy'. Good recordings include Bernstein with the Concertgebouw and Sir Charles Mackerras with the RLPO.
so, recommendations....
regards,
Tam
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by djorg
Hi Tam,
If i understand, You aprreciate Mackerras! Your comment are really useful, and i think i will try Mackeras interpretion of Mozart soon
i have seen the Mackerras CD sets at the same price. But i decided to try concerto CD set (which i recommand !!). The most recommandable CD (IMHO) to introduce Beethoven Symphonies is Kleiber Symphony 5 and 7 with Wiener P. Symphony are easy to listen, well known for most of us. Recording is good. And Kleiber...
Schubert 8 and 9 are beautiful pieces and are good introduction to classical symphonies.I've never heard Mackerras versions. My favourite is also a double cd set: WAND, RCA, Berliner P.. ( note that 5th is not included. Monteux (Philipps) made a fabulous version which is deserved by the quality of the recording.
Haydn: Many syphonies to discover ! 100 to 104 seems to be more interesting than the earlier. I appreciate classical versions (Karajan, Berstein) and modern versions (Harnoncourt, hogwood). There are many beautiful records but not a particullary good one that i could recommand (IMHO). Not sure that Haydn is the best introduction to symphony.
Mozart: Many records, many discussions. If i must burn all my mozart's CD except one !!! I think i kept with me the double cd set of Bohm (s 35 to 41, Berliner P., DG).
Brahms: I really appreciate this one. If you love Schubert you should have good moment with this compositor. S3 is easy to listen (many parts are used for cinema's music) S4 is more tragic, really beautiful. Try Karajan S3 and S4(mid price DG with Berliner)to introduce. S4 Kleiber is my preferred. If your are looking for a recent cycle with big orchestra, you should try WAND/RCA. I found this 3 cd sets few month ago for less than 15 euros (10 £).
Mahler: "Not necessarily for everyone, and perhaps not a good place for starting off" -->clearly !!!
Big orchestra+old records+Mahler style=not easy to listen.
Many classical record are beautiful (Bernstein, Ozawa, Boulez, Haitink....). I recently heard Chailly records and it's very good! i love these records. Try double sets with s8 by example. If you never heard Mahler before, 4th, 1rt and 5th are probably the best introduction
Others: principal compositors are up, but introduce symphony could be done too with DVORAK (S8-9 Kubelik, DG) BERLIOZ (Symphonie Fantastique, Munch,RCA) TCHAIKOVSKI (S5, Celibidache live, EMI) and MENDELSOHN (Harnoncourt, S3-4,teldec).
Regards
djorg
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by bjorne
Some provocative(?) thoughts;
Beethoven, can't argue with that, a true giant.
Brahms, I don't like him at all! His symphonies are just plain boring to my ears, sounding "thick", lacking in transparency. Boooring melodic lines too! His music has never managed to hold my interest.
Mozart, a bit like Brahms when it comes to symphonies, but better. He wrote a lot of other fantastic music though.
My personal favourites when it comes to symphonies are Jean Sibelius and Carl Nielsen. The 6th by Sibelius (very beautiful) and the 4th and 5th ( dramatic and emotional) by Nielsen. This music always sound "fresh" to me.
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by Tam
Djorg,
Thatnks for some interesting recommendations.
Yes, I do rather like Mackerras! The concerto set you mention, is that the Beethoven concertos (because I didn't think he'd recorded them) or his mozart concertos with Brendel and the SCO which are excellent and I thoroughly recommend.
I totally forgot the Kleiber Beethoven 5&7, this is an outstanding disc, one no collection should be without.
regards,
Tam
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by djorg
hi bjorne
i don't know Sibelius and Nielsen symphonies, have you some recommandations?
regards
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by Tam
Bjorne,
Is it possibly that you just haven't hear really good Brahms or Mozart (the latter certainly can be a little boring if done badly) but I there are plenty of interesting Mozart recordings out there.
Djorg,
I don't know Nielsen and I'm far from an expert when it comes to Sibelius. However, the recent Sibelius 3&7 coupling on LSO Live with the LSO and Colin Davis is excellent (they've also done 5&6 which is fine, but note quite so outstanding).
regards,
Tam
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by bjorne
Djorg. Sibelius 6th symphony is very beautiful imo. I really like Jukka Pekka Saraste conducting the Finnish Radio SO, iirc it's on RCA. As for Carl Nielsen Herbert Blomstedt/San Fransisco SO (again iirc, I'm not at home at the moment) is very good. Personally I like the CD with nr 4 and 5 best.
Tam. I don't know, I am absolutely no expert but I have heard enough of Brahms and bought some "highly rated" recordings with Kleiber and Sawallich(sp) to be sure his music is absolutely not to my taste. Not even his chambermusic or violin concerts say anything to me. His piano concerts are ok though.
As I said about Mozart, he wrote a lot of fantastic music but his symphonies are not among my favourite music from his hand. I do own some recordings with Prague CO/Mackeras. They are nice but Mozart wrote a lot other music that is better imo.
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by djorg
Tam
Right !
verifications done...Mackerras with Brendel playing Mozart's (and not beethoven's) piano concertos.
I found your sibelius' recommandation(LSO 3 and 7) and i think i'll try it
Thanks
Djorg
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by Tam
Bjorne - Fair enough. Each to his own.
quote:
Originally posted by djorg:
Tam
Right !
verifications done...Mackerras with Brendel playing Mozart's (and not beethoven's) piano concertos.
I found your sibelius' recommandation(LSO 3 and 7) and i think i'll try it
Thanks
Djorg
The Brendel Mackerras recordings are good (I think they did for discs, most of the later concertos). I saw them perform two of them at the Edinburgh festival last year, an absolutely wonderful concert.
I don't know how available the LSO Live stuff is in France, it's worth knowing that you can order direct from their website (which also has the whole catalogue):
http://www.lso.co.uk/recordings/lsolive/catalogue.asp?id=133regards,
Tam
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by djorg
Bjorne
Sibelius: Finlandia records?
Nielsen : Decca?
i'm agree with you when you say that Brahms' symphonies are not so good as his piano concertos or Beethoven Symphonies. But i think it's reasonnable to recommand this symphonies. I personnaly had very good moments with this records.
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by djorg
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by Tam
Off topic a little, but the label does have a number of excellent discs. In particular the Berlioz (especially Previn's German requiem), the Jansons Mahler 6, the Rostropovich Shostakovich 11 and Peter Grimes (not the best singing of any recording but the orchestral playing is second to none).
regards,
Tam
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by graham55
Carlos Kleiber was the greatest conductor of the latter half of the last Century. Problem was, he didn't like conducting, so didn't make many recordings.
His only studio symphonic recordings on CD are:
Beethoven 5 & 7
Schubert 3 & 8(Unfinished)
Brahms 4
All three are on the mid-priced DG "Originals" series and should be bought before anything else.
G
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by bjorne
quote:
Originally posted by djorg:
Bjorne
Sibelius: Finlandia records?
Nielsen : Decca?
Djorg, I will check when I come home, but iirc Nielsen is on Decca/London and Sibelius on RCA but I'm not sure.
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,
Lovely - a splendid Thread, which opens up a lovely topic, and so thanks Tam.
Of the great symphonies, I am sure others will advocate those of Mozart anf Beethiven, let alone Brahms or Bruckner, so I'll give the beginer the best clue I can by proposing the innocent starts (and I am being VERY specific here) with Haydn's 88th in G. It has everything that symphony can offer, and is also glorious fun. It has a true Largo for the slow movement, which is stupendously beautiful.
I am going to be as specific about the performance, in this case, even though this symphony has had many great recordings... Bohm VPO, Bruno Walter Columbia Symphony Orchestra are just two, BUT look out for Furtwangler with the BPO. It has style for sure (and a very appropriate slightly chaste classical style that is more than apt - it is exemplary), but it captures every shade in the music. There are three joyful movements, full of Haydn at his champaigne best, but the slow movement has a grave, not tragic, but very humain and thoughtful content that Furtwangler reveals with the simplest of means, apparently. Nothing is manipulated or forced, so the miracle is just how he reveals the true power of this music even though it never truely is loud. Pure magic. Find it on DG, probably on the Originals Series now.
It is mistake to get too much at once, so try perhaps two or four recomendations, and really get to know them, and then move outwards. In other words, please don't rush. I could easily have recomended boxed sets of the Paris or London Symphonies, but I want to hook you to the classics, not have you assemble a row of fine sets, not known or much listened too! Start slowly!
My internet connection is crumbly at the moment, so if it won't connect then you won't hear from me till the weekend when my computer friend can breath on the problem...
Good listening, and enjoy the great music! fredrik
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by alanbeeb
I generally don't believe in complete sets of symphonies by one ensemble/conductor. There are always weak spots. But....
Beethoven - Zinman/Tonhalle on Arte Nova, 9th is weak though.
Mahler - Kubelik/Bavarians on DG - weak spots for me are 5th, 8th and 9th, but others are superb, espec 1,3,4,6
Schumann - No weak spots on Sawallisch/Dresden set on EMI, absolutely great.
For Brahms... I was very disappointed by Harnncourt/BPO and Mackerras/SCO and they are my local band. They both seemed to miss the emotional weight needed.
1 - Adrian Boult/LPO on HMV
2 - Abbado/BPO on DG
3 - Abbado/BPO on DG
4 - Kleiber/VPO on DG (one of the best recordings of anything ever)
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Alan,
Boult was IMO the greatest Brahmsian to have made records. The best records were done in November 1954 for the Pye Company, and were last issued on Phoenixa. Unfortunately EMI now own the masters so they are unlikely to appear again. Contemporay LPs were pretty poor, but the CD issue I got is very fine, and not worse IMO than the transfers given to Klemperer's 1957 set, again on EMI. I hope those Pye records come out again. Not even Furtwangler or Klemperer are better... So I am glad you like the First on EMI from Boult, which was the best of the late cyle in my view, though I don't think (contrary to critical opinion, generally) that Boult got better as he got older, and he did not think so either, admitting privately to a friend that he could not understand why he was considered a hero when he thought he should have retired years before. He was at his best between say 1945 and 1955, and after that became rather more careful, less passsionate, but that late Brahms one is an exception, and gives us a clue as the even finer 50's recording of the First goes, and the whole set is like it! Incredible, really...
Fredrik
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by djorg
Graham
Kleiber S5 and 7 is now available in CD/DSD/SACD on DG.(471630)
I've got the 2 cds (dg original and new Sacd). After several blinded compartive audition, Sacd is definitely better. The difference is subtile but real.I recommand it!
More DG has made a "memorial" cd with S8 Schubert, S4 brahms and some other title. It's (imho) a very introduction to Kleiber's art.
More again, you forgot an another symphonic record of Kleiber, Beethoven S6 (Orfeo). But i don't recommand this record (for the beginning)in regard to the bad quality of the recording. Except for the sound quality, this record is also splendid.
Regards
DJORG
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by Peter Litwack
Sibelius and Nielsen
These are both great symphonic composers, although I would say that Sibelius is much more approachable. I love all the Sibelius symphonies, but my favorites are #4, and #7 - #5 is also very inspiring (supposedly written when Finland was under occupation), and #6 is very beautiful, especially in the use of counterpoint. I have always come back to the Colin Davis Boston Symphony Orchestra recordings - Davis seems to be very much in tune with the "organic" nature of Sibelius' symphonic nature. In #7, you can really follow the symphony's "growth".
For Nielsen, the Ole Schmidt recordings are excellent, although there are some who prefer other recordings, expecially of the famous 4th and 5th. Schmidt is the only conductor who really makes sense of #6. I've heard Herbert Blomstedt perform the 6th here in SF, and didn't find his reading particularly inspiring - but it's a tricky symphony to pull off. I also heard Blomstedt do the 5th, which was better. His recordings are just so-so, IMO.
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by Tam
Thanks everyone for some really interesting posts.
Fredrik - I can't really claim credit, I was just copying your idea!
Alan, Personally I haven't much cared for what I've heard of Zinman's cycle (I think he goes a bit too quick, and plays a little fast and loose with the editions). Incidentally, have you been to much at the festival?
As far as any complete cycle of Mahler goes (and I don't think that's something for starting out - nor that any one can possibly hold all the keys), Solti is probably the safest choice. Haitink has some interesting moments (mainly the odd numbered symphonies, the evens being disappointing). Walter's recordings are outstanding, though I think I'm right in saying he only recorded 1, 2, 4, 5, 9 and Das lied (we could probably do with a whole other mahler thread - and I'll start writing one as soon as I've picked through the unlistened to recordings on my shelf!).
Also of note, I recently picked up a rather good disc of the Concertgebouw's RCO Live label of Beethoven 2 and Brahms 2 which is really rather fine.
I'd also echo Fredrik's advice (and indeed others) that buying complete cycles is probably not the best way to start out (I know that doesn't quite chime with my initial post, but picking and choosing from the cycles I mentioned is just as valid). I'd except the Mackerras Beethoven (mainly because it's such good value for money I don't think you can go far wrong).
regards,
Tam
Posted on: 02 September 2005 by Ian G.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Tschkovsky, (he of the many spellings) yet . I particularly like Symphony nr 1 'Winter Dreams'. Played on a stormy winter's night, volume slightly up to focus the attention and a sip or two of malt. Sublime.
Ian
Posted on: 02 September 2005 by alanbeeb
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
Alan...Incidentally, have you been to much at the festival?
I went to see the Gustav Mahler Jugend Orchest doing Bruckner 6 with Ingo Metzmacher... absolutely superb, can't believe how good these people can play and with total passion for the music. I stuck a little review on zerogain. For the record, I recommend klemperer in this symphony!
Also went to see "the Death of Klinghoffer" it was very good, no comment on the the politics involved! But I'm glad composers - and Scottish Opera - are not shying awa from tough issues that could upset people.
Going tonight to see the Bamberg Symphoniker doing Bach, Mahler (Kindertotenlieder), Strauss (Death and Trans.) and Ligeti (scary - something about 100 metronomes).
Posted on: 02 September 2005 by Tam
I saw both of those as well and enjoyed them very much. I'm also at the Bamberg tonight - I've been going to far too much!
regards,
Tam
Posted on: 02 September 2005 by bjorne
quote:
Originally posted by djorg:
Bjorne
Sibelius: Finlandia records?
Nielsen : Decca?
Sibelius 6th on RCA. Saraste/Finnish Radio So. RD60157
Nielsen 4th and 5th. Blomstedt/San Fransisco SO. 421 524-2. Very good sound to.
I have not heard Ole Scmidt's recordings that Peter Litwack recommends but have read that they are very good.
Posted on: 02 September 2005 by JamH
I would recommend Karajan + Berlin Philharmonic for Beethoven [and I would recommend symphonies 3 + 5 + 7 + 9].
Also consider Shostakovich and expecially symphonys 5 + 10 [the last movement of 5 is weak].
Posted on: 02 September 2005 by djorg
James
you recommand karajan+BPO for beethoven, I think it's necesary to precise that the first version (1963) is (IMHO) the best. More, the recent SACD (DG) remastering is an important improvement for sound quality.
I'm not sure that Shostakovich is a good introduction to symphony. But i'm agree to say that these are beautiful.
Bjorne
Thanks for references.
