Which version of Mozart's piano concerto nr20 & 21 ?

Dear Ian,

For the D Minor, No 20, I would steer you towards Clara Haskil with Ferenc Fricsay on DG Dukumente, and for the C Major, No 21, look for Geza Anda on DG Original Masters. Both bring their own couplings, which are of real interest as well, and it seems to me that both readings get right inside the music. I checked that the Haskil is still available on the DG web-page, and the Anda was released only fairly recently. The Haskil is in mono, and the Anda in rather fine stereo. There is a very charming coupling on the Haskil, which is both rarely done and rarely done this well! I will not spoil it!

All the best from Fredrik

Thanks for that Fredrik - I'll have a look for those two.

regards


Ian

PS I'm still discovering and enjoying the Bach you pointed me towards. But it takes time and work keeps interfering !

Dear Ian,

I seriously thought you would have had more ideas from others by now, but these really will please. Neither is premium priced, and the old Haskil recording is in very fine mono, though everything else on her disc is actually in stereo. I really hope you go for them. My advice is always to buy great individual performances (even if this duplicates existing music in your collection - especially so actually!) as I have never come across any cycle of anything, except Brahms and Schumann symphonies, that was truly satisfying all through, and after all it hardly mirrors the concerts we go to, though sometimes one artist may seem so fine that you investigate him or her further in favourite music. That is how I spread out, though it will result in a very focussed collection after a long time!

All the best from Fredrik

I would have posted my thoughts but I don't really know these works well enough. I am currently working through my 3 complete cycles to decide which ones to put on my ipod, but I haven't got to these two yet. That said, I can heartily recommend both Barenboim's sets (his earlier with the ECO, his latter with the BPO) which can both be had for around £25. I'd note that Perahia with the ECO is also very highly regarded (and I've sighted it at bargain price a few times in the sales) but I've never got on too well with it.

Also worth a look are the recent Brendel/Mackerras/SCO recordings, however none of their four discs includes 21. There is a disc of 20 and 24 which I recently inherited but haven't got round to listening to yet. The reason I recommend them is that I was at the Edinburgh festival concert last summer where they did 12 and 17 (the subjects of their final disc in the series which they had just recorded) and it was very good indeed.

Sorry, I can't be more help on these, ask me about the Beethoven concertos instead I do, however, join Fredrik in his surprise that this hasn't got more recommendations.

I notice that you live in Edinburgh. May I assume you're aware of McAlister Matheson Music (if not, to be found a few minutes walk from the Usher Hall, just past the lyceum). Anyway, it's a top notch classical shop, with a dangerous discount card scheme and a very knowledgeable staff. (And just for the record, I have no connection to them - well aside from all the money they help me to spend....)

regards, Tam

For the 20th, you can consider many of the ones covered here and here. Not surprisingly, I also like Casadesus & Szell in the 21st, too. The Haskil, already mentioned is superb, and John O'Conor with Charles Mackerras is worth consideration.

Fredrik,
I have ordered the Anda and will try to track down the Haskil.

Tam,
thanks for the inputs - I do know of the McAlister Matheson Music shop but have not been there in many years - I do most of my music shopping by mouse these days. I may already have followed your Beethoven advice in an earlier thread as I bought the Kovacevich set in the middle of last year. On the other hand it may have been somone elses favourite!

Todd,
I guess I should have found your survey but somehow missed it. I'll read it with interest later tonight.

Anyhow what we really need is more hours in the day !

Ian

Dear Ian,

I can only emphasis how much store I put in the Haskil/Fricsay colaboration in the D Minor, No 20, which seems in Todd's USA review to have been not obtained but rather a contemporay version with the VSO under Baumgartner. I suppose this was on Philips, as I have several Haskil performances with both Paumgartner and Baumgartner on Philips. The DG Fricsay recording is actually not of DG origin, but from a Berlin radio tape in studio conditions, and this allows for the fact that what we get is actually a live performance in ideal conditions without a noisy audience, rather than the interuptions of repeated takes and edits of studio rendition.

The late collaboration with Markevitch and the Lamoreux Orchestra is a Philips release, and is coupled with the C Minor, No 24. It is an incrdible pair of performances, which should not be missed, but there is a slight hitch, and that is the fairly aweful quality of wind-playing, which veers not just through vaguely poor intonation, but into moments of straight bad tuning, which is a great pity, as Haskil is very coompelling here. I therefore would suggest it as an addition, rather than a prime recomemendation. It has a good stereo recording, but the winds in Berlin and Vienne are not riddled with tuning that would never be acceptable nowadays.

If you go to the Deutsche Grammophon web-page and search under Haskil, you will find the old set.

Only one performance I know equals it, and that was Edwin Fischer on HMV with the LPO, where Fischer not only is soloist but also conductor, recorded in 1933 on 78s, and not surprisingly not currently available! Mind it is worth snaffling if it ever shows up. That was my first experience of a Mozart Piano Concerto, and from a 78 set made as stated on the paper sleeves, 'under Wartime utility conditions,' which shows an interesting attitude in times of supply difficulty!

I am waiting for this to re-appear myself.

All the best from Fredrik

PS: DG 437 676-2

I found the Haskil recording on the German amazon site so it should be winging its way to me as I type. Thanks for the serial number it helped to make sure I was finding the right thing.

I'll let you know what I think when I get the CDs but I'm afraid my impressions will be expressed in civilian language since I'm shamefully ignorant of musical theory, terminology and language.

regards

Ian

quote:

I'm shamefully ignorant of musical theory, terminology and language.

So am I Ian but that doesn't stop me from enjoying classical music. It's a nice challenge and fun to discover interesting pieces.

quote:

I'm shamefully ignorant of musical theory, terminology and language.

Me too. But in conversations with friends who are not I have discovered that a naive ear can allow one to enjoy things in a personal way.

Agreed Stephen. I have a friend that once a week we go to a men's group on the other side of LA and during the ride we often talk of classical from performers to composers. He was a bassoonist and part time producer for Delos years ago. He's encyclopedic in his knowlege. I have another friend that is like me not knowing but keen to listen to and evaluate all types of music. Always fun for a conversation or a concert.

Thanks to all the other amateurs for coming out in support - my lack of the techno lingo has never stopped me enjoying the music either but may limit my ability to convey my impressions accurately.

As a theoretical physicist in my working life I know how hard it is to accurately describe complex phenomona in laymans language so I'm quite at ease with my limitations in this area

Ian

Dear Ian,

Have they arrived yet? Let us all know if they are nice for you, please. I hope so! Fredrik

Yes Fredrik they came yesterday. I was waiting until I had time for a considered posting but since you ask I'll give a report of my impressions so far.

I've only listened to the Haskil. They arrived first to my work address so while I had a coffee I stuck the cd in my work computer and had a listen. I know some will shriek in horror or guffaw but music is better than silence. My first impressions were best described as almost confusion - here was a well loved piece, but different somehow. Like seeing a good but not perfect copy of a familiar painting - or seeing the original painting when you have grown up with a copy.

So back to the music. The Haskill performance is in many ways wonderful. I can only compare to the Abbado but her playing is so deft and delicate in places as to make you lean into the music to get closer. It is very feminine in places and the interplay with the orchestra seems more of a dialogue that the Abbado, where it now seems more like he is set out front and the orchestra is more of a support act. His playing is more colourful and rounded but lacks the delicacy and lightness of touch of the Haskil.

My enjoyment on playing it again at home (through my 200 Fredrick!) was great but the impressions gleaned via a decktop PC were still the same.

Fortunately I have the luxury of not having to choose between these two and one will perhaps eventually find favour - but for now the Haskil seems like an exciting new friend and the Abbado like an old familiar pal. We need both!

Ian

Dear Ian,

You have it just right I would think! Haskil was a magician musician! You certainly lean into the music with her - nothing is hammered or forced, but, to me, it seems all the more compelling. Rather as if Mozart, rather than Haskil, were communicating with you!

Anda is different, but I will wait for your reaction to him as well. Dead chuffed by that, I am!

Fredrik

PS: I quite agree that two grand and contrasted approaches are much more illuninating than either one in isolation. You should see the doublings and trebling (and more) I have of my favourite things! One day I'll catalogue the lot in notepad and post it here. It will a long list...

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear Ian,

You have it just right I would think! Haskil was a magician musician! You certainly lean into the music with her - nothing is hammered or forced, but, to me, it seems all the more compelling. Rather as if Mozart, rather than Haskil, were communicating with you!

I certainly found myself captivated by the Haskil, but as a cynical scientist can't tell if it is just because it is so new to me or something more profound - only time will tell. For me the fact that the 'communication' was so immediate even on a 3" PC speaker speaks volumes.

It is a bit spooky, and likely nonsense but weirdly one feels as if one knows a little of Haskil through listening to her play. Or perhaps I'm just projecting from the photo on the sleeve! Anyhow thanks for the inputs and I'll report back on the Anda when I get to it.

Dear Ian,

There is no more sceptical person, I know personally, than me! For all that the spell, only really possible in the abstract world of music in my view, will only deepen, I am sure!

Haskil's life was by no means a bed of roses, and I think that what Furtwangler said about first living through experience in life (tragedy) may well contribute something towards her way of seemingly being both selfless, AND brave, noble even, which shines through in a way so much less likely nowadays, for all the wonderful musicians who enliven our concert life currently.

All the best from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
For all that the spell, only really possible in the abstract world of music in my view,

There is another abstract, if rather inaccessible world where such spellbinding beauty exists and that (for me) is deep in the world of physics. Some of the symmetries mankind has uncovered there are profoundly beautiful. And the more I understand of physics the more incredible the advances of the giants are - how could these guys (mostly) like Newton and Einstein make such leaps of genius - it is incomprehensible and awe inspiring to me. I diverge .... and I'm firing up Anda - sleep can wait.

Ian

Dear Ian,

I love physics. I did A-levels late in Maths (Pure and Applied), Physics and Electronics. Then I went to Coventry to read civil engineering. Sadly I was in trouble with the Pure, the Mechanics I was very good at. It was not a question of understanding. I really enjoyed the lectures, and even the homework, but trying to do the Pure fast enough for exams - no I was too slow and forgetful!

Thus I dropped out of University after six months on the edge of despair, aged forty! It is serious dent to self-esteme to see 18 year olds who had not half the application or interest quite unfazed by their own inability, whilst I saw a semi-self-destructive, and involuntary, streak ruin my confidence in it. Of course I should have battled on, but the money had also run out completely so I needed more confidence than I actually had to go in for borrowing, which blessedly I avoided. The constant in my life has always been music, and for that blessing I am truly grateful. I should have done the A-levels when I was seventeen, as I got an A grade in maths O-level at 15, but I left school to work at home on the farm for my father at sixteen. A big mistake, considering he went bankrupt when I was nineteen. Life is full of moments to make one sceptical, and even cynical in a manner, but never about music for me!

So I quite enjoy the great classics, as they lift the ravaged soul!

All the best from Fredrik

PS: Of the great minds, I am with Furtwangler, even if I discovered his views after forming my own list: Michealangelo, Newton, and Bach. Though in politics and statesmen, the the issue is different, and not so much a matter of the great mind, as perhaps the greatest understanding of human nature and psychology!

University is wasted on the young - apart from a few exceptions most students would be better working (at anything!) for a few years and rolling up aged 21 or more and taking it from there. We even have some who come to Scottish Universities at 16 - crazy (mostly). I'm lucky to have a University job tho'- not perfect but I can't imagine working in a job where success is really measured in the number of pounds you earn ( for someone else usually!). I diverge again...

Back to the music. First time through the Anda and my imperssion is 'virtuoso'. Technically I think it is a very good recording, and the playing of both the orchestra and the pianist are very tight (in the accuracy sense). Some of the slow playing in the middle is very beautiful almost oozing or dripping like warm honey. So I like this CD but is hasn't (yet?) grabbed the heartstrings in the way of the Haskil.

As I started to type this reply I put the Haskil back on for the first time tonight and the hairs rose on my neck as the piano comes in - it really is sublime.

Ian

Dear Ian,

Spot on. Not that I was experimenting on you, but in the 21st Pf concerto that is just what is required, more or less perfection, and a non-sentimental treatment of the slow movement, which here is achingly beautiful, more or less as a succesion of sounds, the beauty lying solely in the music, which is best left to speak entirely for itself. Anda was a technical wizard, but not shallow musically, as time will show you I am sure, but as artists, I think Haskil is the one with a humanity and warmth on my wavelength, more than any other pianist except perhaps for Edwin Fischer and sometime MJ Pires.

You will rightly have concluded that without music I would go mad and find little use for the daily grind!

Also, there are some couplings here, which you will enjoy a good deal as well. Thanks for taking my recomendations. I hope they bring as much long term pleasure as the Abbado set in its turn, and sit alongside each other for many years.

All the best from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
.... Thanks for taking my recomendations.

And thanks for making them and your inputs tonight. It does though feel like a whole new world - previously I thought one version of a piece was enough for anyone but clearly this is not so.

Maybe in a few months I'll come back looking for some more recommedations but for now I'll settle for getting to know what I have. Trouble is time - I'm getting my jazz horizons expanded thanks to one of the secretaries at work (who turns out to everyone's surprise to be a mean closet saxophinist ) and I like uncovering modern vocal music too. A wonderful "problem" to have but frustrating too.

Anyhow better sleep now as I need to look less bleary-eyed than the students in the morning!

regards

ian
PS A fortnight ago I went on spec. at lunchtime to a short recital at the Uni - 4 singers from the 'Dunedin Consort' and they sang some Palastrina church music - I've never heard anything like it. Unaccompanied and divine. They sing again tomorrow and I'm expecting to be searching for some CDs thereafter !

quote:

Only one performance I know equals it, and that was Edwin Fischer on HMV with the LPO, where Fischer not only is soloist but also conductor, recorded in 1933 on 78s, and not surprisingly not currently available! Mind it is worth snaffling if it ever shows up. That was my first experience of a Mozart Piano Concerto, and from a 78 set made as stated on the paper sleeves, 'under Wartime utility conditions,' which shows an interesting attitude in times of supply difficulty!

I am waiting for this to re-appear myself.

Dear Fredrik,

Is this the Edwin Fischer recording you're mentioning? It's from 1933 with the LPO:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000006PD0/qid=1139842...ical&v=glance&n=5174

Best regards
Espen

Dear Epsen,

That is indeed it! Isn't that exciting! I have not had the chance to listen to that old performance for a good fifteen years, since I last had a working 78 TT! The review makes plain what I said of it as well which is nice. Fischer was one of the greatest painists to have made records, in my view. His view is essentially direct and unfussy, but very subtle in tonal gradation and the most stylish rubatto, actually a bit like a male version of the perforamnces by my other Mozart hero, Clara Haskill!

Bit pricey, but I shall have to get it won't I?

Thanks for the information. I'll get a mate to order it on his card this weekend. Yikes, spending money on things I can't afford, and which I don't actually need! Cheers from Fredrik

Dear Epsen,

I just went to the link again, and had a listen to the samples. Just as I remember, but without the bacon! How do people find these things!? Splendid, most definately splendid! Fredrik

PS: It was also very nice to realise that the coupling is the 22nd Concerto in E flat. I have Brendel on Vox in this and that is worth finding as well Then the two lovely lollipops. What we miss when such pieces appear in large collections rather than as enourse or individual issues (as they would have been on 78!) But buriied with twenty other things we miss them. At that time these little things would have been tagged onto a session almost without thought, being a favourite of the artist concerned and performed as such, and they either saw the light of day and were published, or were lost. But what survives makes me think thes old artists had great fun hunting little things out, and all the better for us that they re-emerge now.