July 4 a good day to release Guantanamo Bay detainees?

The land of the free and the brave?

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

errr no - the war is still on going and these are prisoners of war

To which war are you referring?

Terrorist suspects caught in the act on the actual battlefields should not be released, until maybe they've been invited to Egypt (Under US Juristriction) to argue their cases in the name of the law.


Fritz Von Who's the fool now ?

Ah! The American justice system where guilt is inversely proportion to the wealth of the defendant. Where elected representatives are terrified of being seen to be soft on crime. So they rubber-stamp every execution order¨depite nearly 50% of those waiting on death row in Louisiana were found to be completely innocent. Being merely victims of the appointed lawyer (bye-bye cruel world) American Justice system.
With luck these (innocent until-proven-guilty) prisoners might remain in Guantanamo long enough to survive an independant review by the equally corrupt and gutless UN. Instead of being shipped onto the American torture ships in international waters.(Sources: Danish Radio)

The terrorist war against the western nations

Are they? I'm not clear on this TBH. Does the Geneva Convention apply and do bodies such as Amnesty have access to the prisoners? If they are POWs, why are some of them under legal representation? I’m genuinely confused – it seems that they’ve been classified under some new and/or paradoxical category along the lines of ‘because we say so’.

The Geneva Convention is not a carved in stone set of words - it is a set of rules that are most appropriate for the treatment of people in the last set of wars - - so far the Convention has not been updated to reflect the demands of a terrorist war.

I HEARD THAT A COUPLE OF DETAINEE SUSPECTS FROM PAISLEY DONT WANT TO LEAVE; COS THEY'VE NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD; REGULAR NOSEBAG AND ALL !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Derek Wright:
The Geneva Convention is not a carved in stone set of words - it is a set of rules that are most appropriate for the treatment of people in the last set of wars - - so far the Convention has not been updated to reflect the demands of a terrorist war.

Article 103

Judicial investigations relating to a prisoner of war shall be conducted as rapidly as circumstances permit and so that his trial shall take place as soon as possible. A prisoner of war shall not be confined while awaiting trial unless a member of the armed forces of the Detaining Power would be so confined if he were accused of a similar offence, or if it is essential to do so in the interests of national security. In no circumstances shall this confinement exceed three months.

--guess that one will need updating then...

This terrorist war - will it end when it doesn't win elections for US Presidents anymore?

I'm afraid I'll have to stop you there for repetition ! Now Mick; you've got 23 seconds on the subject of "Is this a good day to release the Guantanamo Bay detainees ?"



Fritz Von I dread to think

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:

quote:

Originally posted by Derek Wright:
The Geneva Convention is not a carved in stone set of words - it is a set of rules that are most appropriate for the treatment of people in the last set of wars - - so far the Convention has not been updated to reflect the demands of a terrorist war.

Article 103

Judicial investigations relating to a prisoner of war shall be conducted as rapidly as circumstances permit and so that his trial shall take place as soon as possible. A prisoner of war shall not be confined while awaiting trial unless a member of the armed forces of the Detaining Power would be so confined if he were accused of a similar offence, or if it is essential to do so in the interests of national security. In no circumstances shall this confinement exceed three months.

--guess that one will need updating then...

I doubt the Geneva Convention applies since some(most?) of the prisoners are not prisoners of war.

Was a declaration of war actually made by the US on Iraq? If so, only members of the Iraqi armed forces are covered by the Convention - others detained for alleged terrorism are not subject to the Convention. Problem is they don't seem to be covererd by any law.

How many are detained still in UK without charge ?


Fritz Von Never mind perhaps they'll go away eventually eh ?

quote:

Originally posted by Derek Wright:
errr no - the war is still on going and these are prisoners of war

I think the point is precisely that they are not prisoners of war, they are, instead, 'enemy combatants'. This change of designation is nothing more than a disgusting legal trick attempting obviate America's international legal and moral obligations towards these prisoners. This is, frankly a stain on the reputation and the conscience and reputation of America, and I am quite certain they will come to regret it.

As long as America goes out of it's way to create symbols of oppression such as this, it will not win the hearts and mind that are so fundamental to winning a war against terrorism. It is also absurd that many western governments seem to think that, since the war waged by terrorists is against democracy, the best way to fight it is to curtail the democratic rights we are ostensibly trying to protect.

The implication that breaching the Geneva Convention is okay, simply because it hasn't been updated is similarly misplaced, not least because in this new kind of war, it's much harder to identify whether somebody actually is a terrorist or not. Similarly the idea that this 'new' kind of war requires torture is also absurd, since it is well known that torture rarely produces reliable information.

America, Statue of Liberty and all, used to, rightly, pride itself on being the capitol of justice; with behaviour like that they lose their claim.

Still, on the plus side, whenever America lapses in this kind of way, it usually recovers its way again.



regards,

Tam

It's been well documented (as is still the case) that the US get's its 'Suspects' tortoured/Interrorgated in Egypt for conveninece, innit.


Fritz Von Shurely the same conventions apply there too John ?

___________________________________________________
Originally posted by Derek Wright:
errr no - the war is still on going and these are prisoners of war
__________________________________________________

As Tam has already pointed out, these prisoners do not have P.O.W. status which allows the Americans to bypass the Geneva convention, not that it would ever be allowed to stand in the way of American foreign policy. The U.S would happily denounce another regime which held people illegally, indefinetely and subjected them to torture if it suited the interests of U.S. foreign policy.
On the other hand, the U.S. is happy to support murderous regimes such as Columbia. It has armed and/or bankrolled and/or supported the Contras in Nicaragua, Suharto in Indonesia, Noriega in Panama, Saddam Hussien in Iraq, Bin Laden in Afghanistan, Marcos in the Phillipines, Mubarrak in Egypt, Unita in Angola, Musharref in Pakistan (who seized power in a military coup) and the current incumbent in Uzbekistan whose pet method of ridding himself of dissidents by boiling them alive, to name but a few.
The current war on 'terror' and invasion of Iraq was planned by the U.S. long before 9/11. The bombing of the twin towers was an atrocity. Unfortunately, however, it provided the neo-cons with the excuse to launch their 'Project for a new American century' i.e. ensuring U.S. dominance (Especially with regard to China). The U.S., in common with many governments, will condemn or condone 'terrorism' depending on circumstance.
Either charge the Guantanamo detainees with a crime and furnish proof, or release them immediately.

What is your point me old China, or have you just miraculously awoken from a ten year coma ? if so my heartiest Congratulations. I really don't mean to be sarcastic, I'm just wondering where the hell you're coming from that's all mate ?

Fritz Von Cliche's are ten a penny and very very old hat not helping anybody

___________________________________________________
Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
What is your point me old China,
____________________________________________________
Fairly obvious I would have thought. I just find it incredible that some people still fall for the Bush 'war on terror' line.

Each to their own mate, it's just that I find this never ending repetition of unsubstantiated cliche's rather tiresome and unproductive in the real world, even though I agree with your premise, as I hope is well known in this place, innit.

Fritz Von Cheers anyway; & nothing, I repeat nothing, is ever obvious, just you ask Our Tom

Phritz

I really don't believe that allowing people to express their concerns on a serious issue amounts to cliché. Would you rather everything was reduced to your own level where nothing is sacred and nothing really matters provided you can make a joke out of it? And no, I wouldn't employ a loose cannon with an attitude problem like yours either.

The good news is that despite Bush's visit to Denmark the population is still not enamoured of its present leader in taking Denmark into Iraq. Since he has dismally failed to supply the goodies he promised in the election I doubt he will be rewarded at the next. At home Bush is facing opposition from all sides including his own party of previously-loyal, knee-jerk followers. America is already tired of Bush and his popularity ratings are sinking as fast as the sun setting over America's international reputation. Now how's that for a string of pointless clichés? Goodnight.

That's fine me old dribbly chin, but I'll stick to what I've already said, I don't make light of these matters when folk are sincere & using their brains, and I sometimes think you don't understand obviously where I'm coming from, which is fine, but for UK/US so-called seriously informed people I feel like all non risk takers hang on the side.lines and go with the flow for when it suits them, which I understand entirely but it commands (and never will do ) any respect.

Here, there is no right & wrong, you win I lose, but hopefully more a case of learning on different sides, without all the never ending 'cicular bullshit' . With respect even your own commentts about Bush's waining popularity at home are way out of date, this is the internet, it must be actual, fresh, and relevant, otherwise the object of the excercise as far as I'm concerned at least is totally wasted on chaff.

Fritz Von Time for bed methinks to dream about Danish pork pies, pickled onions and Carlesburg, innit

Keep well informed cos the times they are a'changing NOW: Use your imagination my friend too it's fun

Hmm,

This is definitely a case of reading Fritz's posts with care and being up-to-date about current affairs.

If you needed to do a poll about who was most on-the nail about what was going on in the world, Fritz must surely be eating the coconut.

Best watch this space innit.

Since my usual source is P1, the "serious channel" on Danish radio, I can be no more up to date than quoting from the news on the day I post. Perhaps Phritz watches Sky News to remain on the ball? It would certainly explain his passion for total non-events in the sporting world. Whatever.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nime:
At home Bush is facing opposition from all sides including his own party of previously-loyal, knee-jerk followers. America is already tired of Bush and his popularity ratings are sinking as fast as the sun setting over America's international reputation.

Perfectly relevant and bang up to date. As the body bags being shipped home increase (now around 1500) American mothers, fathers, wifes and kids are now going off the idea of sacrificing their loved ones for Dubya's oil chums.
I'll bet those pesky Iraqis are getting fed up with all those daisy-cutter and cluster-bomb cliches being dropped on them.