Legal rights and my broken Lotus
Posted by: Bruce Woodhouse on 15 January 2010
OK, LOTUS, Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious.
My Elise was new in August and has just under 3500 miles on the clock. Last week it suddenly lost all coolant and the car has been with the garage-who have finally identified a leak from the actual engine block. This would appear to require a new engine.
I'm pretty miffed at this and a vague voice in my head is wondering if after such a major fault I could reject the car and insist on an new vehicle.
Anyone know my rights on this??
Bruce
(Toyota engine by the way, so maybe not Lotus' fault!)
My Elise was new in August and has just under 3500 miles on the clock. Last week it suddenly lost all coolant and the car has been with the garage-who have finally identified a leak from the actual engine block. This would appear to require a new engine.
I'm pretty miffed at this and a vague voice in my head is wondering if after such a major fault I could reject the car and insist on an new vehicle.
Anyone know my rights on this??
Bruce
(Toyota engine by the way, so maybe not Lotus' fault!)
Posted on: 15 January 2010 by Don Phillips
Posted on: 15 January 2010 by BigH47
Bruce did you mean 35,000 miles, or 3,500?
Time is the problem as regards the rejecting of a product(not that it should matter).
Obviously it will be fixed under warranty, but I'd be like you wondering ,what next?
Not been a lucky car really, has it?
Time is the problem as regards the rejecting of a product(not that it should matter).
Obviously it will be fixed under warranty, but I'd be like you wondering ,what next?
Not been a lucky car really, has it?
Posted on: 15 January 2010 by Bruce Woodhouse
3,500. OP edited.
Don, thanks
Bruce
Don, thanks
Bruce
Posted on: 15 January 2010 by Guinnless
Have the garage told you exactly what is wrong and where the leak is coming from? If they've pressure tested it, which they should have, they would know precisely where it's leaking.
Even if you did need a new engine it should be all under warranty anyway.
Cheers
Steve
Even if you did need a new engine it should be all under warranty anyway.
Cheers
Steve
Posted on: 15 January 2010 by Bruce Woodhouse
I'm going over tomorrow to discuss it in detail. Came as a bit of a surprise when they rang me and I did not ask all the complicated things I should have.
Bruce
Bruce
Posted on: 15 January 2010 by Tony Lockhart
If it's a Toyota engined Elise, surely this is a rare defect?
Tony
Tony
Posted on: 15 January 2010 by Mike-B
It sounds like it could be a porous engine block - a not so rare and a well understood casting defect
Its clearly warranty
I doubt you will be offered let alone legally entitled to a new car after 3500 miles and 5 months
Its clearly warranty
I doubt you will be offered let alone legally entitled to a new car after 3500 miles and 5 months
Posted on: 15 January 2010 by DAVOhorn
remember remember
L O T U S
lots of trouble usually serious
Like landrovers they are unreliable for 30 years.
This is unlike most modern cars which are supremely reliable for 3 years and 1 second out of warranty become uneconomical to repair.
Should be engine replacement under warranty and consideration for loss of value on sale due to replacement engine.
Still a great car to be sat in on the hard shoulder while waiting for the A.A. or RAC.
I would love one.
david
L O T U S
lots of trouble usually serious
Like landrovers they are unreliable for 30 years.
This is unlike most modern cars which are supremely reliable for 3 years and 1 second out of warranty become uneconomical to repair.
Should be engine replacement under warranty and consideration for loss of value on sale due to replacement engine.
Still a great car to be sat in on the hard shoulder while waiting for the A.A. or RAC.
I would love one.
david
Posted on: 16 January 2010 by tonym
My Rover-engined Elise was very reliable and well built, and from what I can gather modern Lotus's are pretty reliable generally. So it's just really bad luck.
A slight digression - My experiences with Land Rovers has been excellent, I've had six so far. The last couple, a Discovery which did c80K miles with zero (and I do mean 0) faults and my current Range Rover similarly has had no problems and has just passed it's first MOT test with flying colours. I love it to bits, and coming over the Pennines on the A66 in a blizzard the other week, there's nothing I'd rather be in.
A slight digression - My experiences with Land Rovers has been excellent, I've had six so far. The last couple, a Discovery which did c80K miles with zero (and I do mean 0) faults and my current Range Rover similarly has had no problems and has just passed it's first MOT test with flying colours. I love it to bits, and coming over the Pennines on the A66 in a blizzard the other week, there's nothing I'd rather be in.
Posted on: 16 January 2010 by shoot6x7
quote:Originally posted by tonym:
coming over the Pennines on the A66 in a blizzard the other week, there's nothing I'd rather be in.
An interesting observation ...
In Canada, it has taken many years for people to realise that an SUV (sports utility vehicle) like a Jeep Grand Cherokee, Ford Explorer and Land Rovers are terrible in the ice and snow.
Granted, you can plow yourself through deep snow, but that's about it. The high centre of gravity makes handling very messy, it's weight means that its stopping distance is rubbish. And many drivers' false sense of security make them drive too fast and more often than not you'll see more SUVs in the ditch by the side of the road than a regular car.
IMHO an AWD car which has better handling is the best suited vehicle in snow and ice. It's a given that you need decent winter tires though !!
Posted on: 16 January 2010 by winkyincanada
quote:Originally posted by shoot6x7:quote:Originally posted by tonym:
coming over the Pennines on the A66 in a blizzard the other week, there's nothing I'd rather be in.
And many drivers' false sense of security make them drive too fast and more often than not you'll see more SUVs in the ditch by the side of the road than a regular car.
Totally agree. It's about attitude.
Posted on: 17 January 2010 by tonym
In my 40-odd years of Land Rover ownership (with a Toyota Land Cruiser thrown in somewhere) I've pulled many vehicles, including saloon-type 4X4s, out of deep snow, and although I agree about having the right tyres, the type of 4-wheel drive also has a significant part to play in how effective the vehicle is in adverse or off-road conditions. My latest Range Rover has a wonderful "Terrain Control" system which pretty much takes all the skill out of driving over various surfaces.It's nonsense to say that 4x4s are "terrible" in ice and snow. Given a driver familiar with them a good 4X4 is excellent. It's about the driver not the vehicle.
I've also owned concurrently a series of Audis, most having been 4X4s (I like 4X4s!) and, whilst they're great cars, they cannot match the sophistication of my RR in off-road or adverse driving. Sure, they handle better, but anyone with half a brain can work out that such a car will inevitably be more nimble than a massive great 4X4, and drive accordingly.
I've also owned concurrently a series of Audis, most having been 4X4s (I like 4X4s!) and, whilst they're great cars, they cannot match the sophistication of my RR in off-road or adverse driving. Sure, they handle better, but anyone with half a brain can work out that such a car will inevitably be more nimble than a massive great 4X4, and drive accordingly.
Posted on: 17 January 2010 by BigH47
I had to pick up an Audi A4 3.o L diesel Cabrio(it was too cold for the roof down though) the other day. It hadn't been moved since the snow fell, it was a bit of a pain to get out of the car park, it was an auto but wouldn't let me selesct 2 nd gear, also the clutch bite needed a fair amount of throttle.
On the way back I purposely went on some roads I knew hadn't been gritted or cleared. Yes there was more drive with the 4WD, but all this meant was when something untoward happened you were going faster and it took longer to sort out.
Vehicles best overall seemed to be white vans some even had BOTH hands on the wheel.
On the way back I purposely went on some roads I knew hadn't been gritted or cleared. Yes there was more drive with the 4WD, but all this meant was when something untoward happened you were going faster and it took longer to sort out.
Vehicles best overall seemed to be white vans some even had BOTH hands on the wheel.
Posted on: 17 January 2010 by deadlifter
[quote]Granted, you can plow yourself through deep snow, but that's about it. The high centre of gravity makes handling very messy, it's weight means that its stopping distance is rubbish. And many drivers' false sense of security make them drive too fast and more often than not you'll see more SUVs in the ditch by the side of the road than a regular car.[/quote/]
I have had a Land Rover 110 Defender for about twelve years now and the stopping distance is great in all weathers. [except sheet ice, obviously] The idea being that you use your gears to slow the vehicle down, not the vehicles foot brake [the Defender having excellent engine braking] and you drive to the road conditions NOT the speed limits, because all your electronic gizmo`s attached to most modern vehicles these days will not do jack shit if you do not drive accordingly, read the road and look well ahead to anticipate hazards.
I have had a Land Rover 110 Defender for about twelve years now and the stopping distance is great in all weathers. [except sheet ice, obviously] The idea being that you use your gears to slow the vehicle down, not the vehicles foot brake [the Defender having excellent engine braking] and you drive to the road conditions NOT the speed limits, because all your electronic gizmo`s attached to most modern vehicles these days will not do jack shit if you do not drive accordingly, read the road and look well ahead to anticipate hazards.
Posted on: 17 January 2010 by northpole
Re the Lotus -I suspect that you will have to accept the warranty engine replacement. Lotus are responsible to honour this, strange that it should be a Toyota engine which has let you down so badly.
Re 4WD - in the UK I suspect that, as the weather rarely falls into the treacherous category we have recently experienced, there are very few people who have invested in special winter tyres and wheels. Most 4WD models I see on the road are fitted with 'Carlos Fandango' superwide wheels and tyres which have no chance of getting a good purchase on snow or ice. Ground clearance also tends to be minimal - with obvious exceptions.
My suggestion in the UK is whether you have front, rear or four wheel drive - when the weather behaves badly you should simply leave your car at home. The alternative is to become familiar with your insurers and local body shop...
Peter
Re 4WD - in the UK I suspect that, as the weather rarely falls into the treacherous category we have recently experienced, there are very few people who have invested in special winter tyres and wheels. Most 4WD models I see on the road are fitted with 'Carlos Fandango' superwide wheels and tyres which have no chance of getting a good purchase on snow or ice. Ground clearance also tends to be minimal - with obvious exceptions.
My suggestion in the UK is whether you have front, rear or four wheel drive - when the weather behaves badly you should simply leave your car at home. The alternative is to become familiar with your insurers and local body shop...
Peter
Posted on: 17 January 2010 by deadlifter
quote:Most 4WD models I see on the road are fitted with 'Carlos Fandango' superwide wheels and tyres which have no chance of getting a good purchase on snow or ice.
Correct with the exception of mud tyre`s
Posted on: 17 January 2010 by Cymbiosis
quote:Originally posted by northpole:
Re the Lotus -I suspect that you will have to accept the warranty engine replacement. Lotus are responsible to honour this, strange that it should be a Toyota engine which has let you down so badly.
Peter
Strange, but not unheard of.
However, even though it's not the Lotus part of the car that has let you down, it sure is their responsibility to get Bruce sorted out and quickly.
KR
Peter
Posted on: 17 January 2010 by naim_nymph
Maybe a silly question but, was is an anti-freeze type coolant?quote:Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
My Elise was new in August and has just under 3500 miles on the clock. Last week it suddenly lost all coolant and the car has been with the garage-who have finally identified a leak from the actual engine block. This would appear to require a new engine.
Debs
Posted on: 18 January 2010 by Bruce Woodhouse
The dealer has comfirmed it appears to be a casting fault with an area of porosity in the block. We are awaiting Lotus' response and I have suggested some compensation may be in order. We shall see. Toyota engineering eh! I'd like to point out to the Lotus-knockers this engine appears in a selction of current Toyota models...
Clearly not a cold weather issue anyway.
As for the FWD drive debate it seems to me taht if you live up very rural roads or tracks the FWD can get you too the main road. After that if conditions are bad the road will be blocked anyway.
Bruce
Clearly not a cold weather issue anyway.
As for the FWD drive debate it seems to me taht if you live up very rural roads or tracks the FWD can get you too the main road. After that if conditions are bad the road will be blocked anyway.
Bruce
Posted on: 18 January 2010 by DAVOhorn
what about rear engine rear wheel drive ie Vee Dubs and porkers and Alpine Renaults.
Trouble was with stopping and locking front wheels when braking.
I remember in 1978-79 going over Dundry Hill in Bristol i hit black ice and did a beautiful 360 and carried on as if nothing had happened. This was not skill just luck. It was so quick .
A colleague on the same day put his vauxhall upside down in a farmers field after hitting the stone wall on black ice at Chew Magna.
For those with a good memory i worked for NYTECH AUDIO back then.
Ahhh those were the days.
David
Trouble was with stopping and locking front wheels when braking.
I remember in 1978-79 going over Dundry Hill in Bristol i hit black ice and did a beautiful 360 and carried on as if nothing had happened. This was not skill just luck. It was so quick .
A colleague on the same day put his vauxhall upside down in a farmers field after hitting the stone wall on black ice at Chew Magna.
For those with a good memory i worked for NYTECH AUDIO back then.
Ahhh those were the days.
David
Posted on: 18 January 2010 by tonym
A local friend's got a Mercedes coupé which was completely useless during the recent snowy stuff. However, he's also got an old 1950's Morris Minor which, loaded up with a couple of bags of water softener salt in the boot, trundled along quite happily on its narrow tyres.
And what became of Nytech? I owned a Nytech amp for a while - can't quite remember the model, but they didn't exactly use catchy names for their kit!
And what became of Nytech? I owned a Nytech amp for a while - can't quite remember the model, but they didn't exactly use catchy names for their kit!
Posted on: 18 January 2010 by DAVOhorn
Went to that great hifi showroom in the sky.
CTA 252 XD 2 when i worked there.
Did a active bi amp speaker with ARC
Did a tri amp active system for the Isaobarik, was damned fine too.
Moved from Chew Magna to Newtown Wales after i left them then went bang again permanently.
Met Rick hay at a HiFi show in london a few times in 90's.
One of his sons used to work for KEF.
I was there for approx 18 months.
Good fun when working there.
David
CTA 252 XD 2 when i worked there.
Did a active bi amp speaker with ARC
Did a tri amp active system for the Isaobarik, was damned fine too.
Moved from Chew Magna to Newtown Wales after i left them then went bang again permanently.
Met Rick hay at a HiFi show in london a few times in 90's.
One of his sons used to work for KEF.
I was there for approx 18 months.
Good fun when working there.
David
Posted on: 18 January 2010 by shoot6x7
quote:Originally posted by tonym:
In my 40-odd years of Land Rover ownership (with a Toyota Land Cruiser thrown in somewhere) I've pulled many vehicles, including saloon-type 4X4s, out of deep snow, and although I agree about having the right tyres, the type of 4-wheel drive also has a significant part to play in how effective the vehicle is in adverse or off-road conditions. My latest Range Rover has a wonderful "Terrain Control" system which pretty much takes all the skill out of driving over various surfaces.It's nonsense to say that 4x4s are "terrible" in ice and snow. Given a driver familiar with them a good 4X4 is excellent. It's about the driver not the vehicle.
I've also owned concurrently a series of Audis, most having been 4X4s (I like 4X4s!) and, whilst they're great cars, they cannot match the sophistication of my RR in off-road or adverse driving. Sure, they handle better, but anyone with half a brain can work out that such a car will inevitably be more nimble than a massive great 4X4, and drive accordingly.
I think I agree with everything you've said there Tony, except for
quote:Originally posted by tonym:
but anyone with half a brain can work out that such a car will inevitably be more nimble than a massive great 4X4, and drive accordingly.
My response would be "You'd be surprised".
I agree that there's nothing like a big SUV 4x4 to haul other cars out of thigh deep snow. I've played in the deep stuff in rental Ford Explorers many a time. But for general winter driving in snow and slush an AWD is the best technology. I don't understand why many North American SUV drivers drive so fast in slippery conditions, but they do.
BTW, in those very same Explorer's I've learn't that their ABS systems will likely get me into an accident rather than prevent them.
Posted on: 18 January 2010 by BigH47
quote:BTW, in those very same Explorer's I've learn't that their ABS systems will likely get me into an accident rather than prevent them
Volvo found that their drivers were having more accidents , because of the "Safer Vehicles" type ads, drivers threshold of fear was raised, resulting in more accidents.
Another thing that a lot of drivers don't know is that for ABS system yo work at least ONE wheel has to have some grip, the inevitable results are seen on sheet ice and snow.
Posted on: 19 January 2010 by Exiled Highlander
I switched mine off in the snow...I'd rather be in some semblance of control tahn have some electronic "brain" controlling how I drive when things get tricky!quote:Volvo found that their drivers were having more accidents , because of the "Safer Vehicles" type ads,
Cheers
Jim
BTW, during my time in the US I owned a Jeep Grand Cherokee, a GMC Yukon and VW Touraeg - all of them shit in the snow (and there was plenty of that in the midwest at times) but it was all down to the wide road tyres. My sister-in-law's LR Defender did pretty good but not as good my her husbands Mercedes Unimog!!
