Is the Recession Exaggerated

quote:

Originally posted by Malky:

quote:

My main point is still this though; Mick is engaging in debate here.

That's a rather spurious assumption. Debate suggests some sort of dialogue with a willingness to accede to evidence when that evidence contradicts your argument.

Mick has, over a number of years, merely continued to chant his Thatcherite mantra that he has done ok, so stuff everyone who hasn't as this is the result of sheer indolence on their part.

Furthermore, he plays to the gallery when his caricatured Daily Mail views are called out. He is also by no means reticent to inform his assailants exactly how low they rank in his opinion.

I think we needn't worry about him being overly sensitive to some of the responses his cartoon views solicit.

I agree.I've seen no evidence that Mick wants to engage in debate. Or quite simply we are all falling for a mega wind up . I suspect the former.

Andrew.

If this thread starts to morph into a discussion of a particular member then I may have to pull it, so let's keep it on topic.

Andrew, please do not discuss on here a member's affairs on any other forum. I will edit your post.

Mick: I'm really hoping this thread is your way of being ironic. Honestly...

This recession truly sucks!

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Very true.

The only thing that is worse than under-qualified is over-qualified.

I omitted a few A-levels and so on to get taken onto the books of the agancy that placed me in what would become a permanent job, and a happy one.

It is not a very serious untruth to reduce your level of of apparent qualification ...

I did not refrain from claiming my O-level Maths [etc], but left out A-levels in Maths, Physics, and Electronics. This worked wonders in terms of getting interviewed ...

ATB from George

You do realise you're probably committing a criminal act in so doing ...

I've enjoyed your posts in this thread up until this one - I do not like the approach, however necessary it may be, to lie to achieve something. And no, I'm far from saintly!

I was applying for jobs as a labouring opperative.

I doubt if, having proved that I could labour, anyone was going to bring a prosecution for not mentioning some good A-levels in my CV, which however are nothing but a mill-stone round the neck unless followed through with a degree course in so many situations.

And so of course it has been shown as over time I have conversed with the company owner who knows all the details of my education now - openly and honestly discussed, but the agency could not be told, as already shown by the failed attempts with other agencies who had been told.

Far more serious would be to pretend one had qualification one actually did not.

In the real world, so long as no one is hurt, I have become a pragmatists when necessary. There is a difference between an evil untruth that hurts someone and an economy with the truth that hurts no one.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:
If this thread starts to morph into a discussion of a particular member then I may have to pull it, so let's keep it on topic.

Andrew, please do not discuss on here a member's affairs on any other forum. I will edit your post.

Mick: I'm really hoping this thread is your way of being ironic. Honestly...

This recession truly sucks!

Richard, Mick is a big boy now and I'm sure he's more than capable of looking after himself (if he gets too upset he'll just flounce off for a few months, like he usually does). I've no idea what Andrew said to make you edit that post, but as the starter of this thread, I think it is perfectly legitimate for posters to question or deconstruct the substance of Mick's original post and his motives for posting it.

It's a free country, and Mick is entitled to say what he likes within the bounds of the law but others are just as free to criticise what he says and his reasons for doing it.

I think Mick enjoys playing the blimp, pricking the balloons of what he regards as political correctness or namby-pamby liberalism. If that's not the case, he displays a shocking failure of imagination.

That said, as I've pointed out in an earlier post, this recession is unbelievably severe, probably the worst since the Depression. Many industries will probably never recover and while it's impossible to predict the outcome I suspect the economy will be scarred for years to come.

During the Great Depression, plenty of people did really well - most conspicuously, film stars, movie moguls and certain types of industrialists. But that doesn't mean that tens of million of lives weren't ruined.

I've been following this thread with some interest. My background is very much working class (my parents helped me by supporting my schooling and being there when I needed them) - much like many thousands of other youngsters - but, in a sense, I crossed over by training to become a Chartered Accountant.

So I should be very much in the camp that supports success to those who work for it ... that all have the opportunity if they only want to take it. I consider myself a good, if not particularly outstanding, accountant. I'm more interested in getting "things right" than in achieving "the right result" and perhaps that is why I have failed to make my fortune.

In the years immediately preceding my move from the big league to the "you're on your own now" league I noticed several things which showed where I was going wrong. These have been suggested before and come down to making a choice between work and family - getting the right balance. In my final year with the "big firm" I found that my three department heads (senior and two deputy managers) were either single or divorced. Further, all Assistant Managers (varying from 4 to 5 of which I was one) were all married.

I'm certain that Mick is right - with a specific qualification: if the job opportunity is there (including are you qualified to take it) then everyone is in with a chance. But the price you pay may be far too high.

But where is his wrong - so wrong - is his suggestion that the recession is exaggerated and accordingly, our financial well-being is in our own hands. If you're one of the few who has the opportunity - as per the preceding paragraph - then yes, but this applies to only a few. For many no such opportunity ever arises, or maybe only once or twice in a lifetime.

The old addage "get on your bike" is so laughable that anyone who thinks it's true needs to come to their senses.

And: how many businesses/employers do you know where there are more bosses than staff? And: how many businesses do you know where their financial success came without staff? I dare say that even people in Mick's position would find it hard to earn the money suggested if it weren't for many others earning far less.

The majority of job vacancies are filled by people that are judged by the employer as having little or no ambition. It’s a fact.

Also, it’s easier and cheaper for an employer to take on a self employed person. No sick pay, no NI, no holiday pay, no pension, no private medical insurance. Mick may have been offered the 2 contracts simply because he was available to start work immediately.

The majority of job vacancies are filled by people that are judged by the employer as having little or no ambition. It’s a fact.

This may well be a fact, and it shows that employers often get the monkeys they diserve.

If the relationship is one of mutual respect it is even possible that the employee may become more valuable and motivated than was ever dreamt off by the employee himself or his employer!

Respect is always earned, and requires a certain generosity of spirit to flower. What may be demanded in placce of respect actually is analogous to fear. Fear is corrosive and denies the possibility of trust. The cost of a lack of trust is primarily honesty, but also is must be the first factor in destroying team spirit in the workplace.

Treat a person like a dolt for long enough, and there is no reason for that person to behave as anything else, even if the original intention was not to.

I have seen so many good people hammered into ambitionless submission by incompetent management, because these managers never made the effort to actually work out which of their workers were the ones pulling their weight and which were the lead swingers.

Fortunately away from that sort of workplace now ...

ATB from George

Fatcat

quote:

The majority of job vacancies are filled by people that are judged by the employer as having little or no ambition. It’s a fact.

Show me your source that it's a "fact".

I normally aim for about 20% of my staff to be contract staff (is this the self employed you refer to?) as the business I am in flexes very rapidly and I need that flexibility to be able to manage costs and keep them appropriate to hit planned profit margins (and trust me they are not excessive....in fact an 8 figure paper loss doesn't constitute a profit last time I looked...)

The fully employed staff members enjoy one of the best pension schemes in my my industry, excellent private medical options, excellent company car options....I could go on....

I (we) hire staff that are skilled, motivated and want to succeed. Staff that aren't satisfied with the status quo and who want to drive change and drive improvement.

I want employees that know more than I do as I don't pretend to know everything...in fact I know very little except how to create strong teams that work together for a common aim. Maybe that is worth something....it seems to have worked for me for the past 15 years.

It is not cheaper to take on a self employed person. far from it - don't let the employment agency hype fool you!

Regards

Jim

Kevin,
I think that you will agree that talking about other people on this or other forums/people in general in a negative way (slagging off to be blunt) is not acceptable and it can start a trend of ill feeling amongst forum members on this here wonderful forum.

This sort of thing is certainly not positive for naim or it's customers.
Surely we can all debate without having to jump on a bandwagon in a *dare i say it* (Jeremy kyle style chat show) sort of way, there are other places for that...

back on topic....
I do hope there is an upward spiral by the end of this year, this was a forced recession, so maybe just maybe it will sort itself out quicker than is usual.

Kind regards, Steve

Chaps

It cannot be denied that there is a recession, the UK's GDP has shrunk by nearly 5%.

My point at the begining of this discussion was simple, there are still people and industries doing well. It took me only two weeks to secure two interviews and I was successful in both. I visited two restaurants, both of which were filled up with people spending money and looking happy and optimistic. Therefore it is not all bad.

We are in danger of talking the recession even worse and a positive attitude helps to turn things around. House prices seem to be rising again and tonight two banks announced a collective profit of £6bn which is better than last year.

Also if things are so bad that 150 people chase a part time job in a supermarket, how come we still do not have a window cleaner in my area.

Gardeners are also in short supply so where is the entrepenural spirit of someone becoming a window cleaner or gardener.

I am not saying it is good but some people could do a lot more to help themselves.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Exiled Highlander:
Show me your source that it's a "fact".

Jim

This is your experience, in your industry. In my experience this is not the case.
The majority of workers in this country are unskilled, they are taken on to do a specific job. The employers are quite happy if they do this job for 40 years.

I would also say that it is a fact that people are employed for the their lack of intelligence.

It may be more expensive to used self employed labour if you use an agency. I work as self employed, no agency involved. The cost to the employer is less than taking me on as staff.

I estimate a salaried member of staff earning 40K, would cost approximately an additional 2K pension, 5K NI, 4K car allowance, 1.5K medical insurance.

The irony is in asking the op his "intent" 6 pages after it was posted and after previously having welcomed the OP back to the forum with open arms.

Somehow "proven record in cost cutting", in my little mind, probably equals (or at least includes) numerous declarations of redundancy. Ah, and then a willingness to debate (and intentionally engage) the victims similarly stepped-on on a public forum.

Time for side 2 of "Dreamhouse" tonight.

My empathy and compassion to all of you who have felt the effects of this recession so deeply. I still am fortunate to have my job but I have lost 80% of everything I have worked 32 years to save.

Haven't eaten out since 2002. I understood the doctors to make that recommendation because of how it woud affect my disease, but perhaps even they understand the lack of perspective some diners I might encounter will have via a superior station and worse, a superior ego.

Can I freshen that water for you, sir.

Jeff A

Well chaps,
I've done what I should have done a few days ago and placed Mr Parry on my ignore list.
He cannot accept first hand testimony of the difficulties of this recession because he is fortunate enough to have missed its effects. It's like saying elephants don't exist because I've never seen one.
I shall now investigate other topics on the forum instead and allow my blood pressure to reach more manageable levels.....
Regards,
Steve.

Chaps

Steve knows that part of my job is to streamline costs and he really needs to know how people like me think and act. So red lining me is hardly an intelligent act.

There is an old saying that I have adhered to for years ..." get close to your friends but get even closer to your enemies."

Regards

Mick

But elephants don't exist

Surpirsed you can tell the difference Mick!

You really should be nominated for "wind up merchant of the year awards" if such a competition exists!

Peter

Avole

I would hardly regard the recession a boring subject. If I was younger, my aim would be how to position myself to benefit from it in the longer term.

We know that the chances are that Cameron will be the next Prime Minister and we all know that we have a total debt of £75bn to clear. Therefore there is going to be some severe expenditure cuts in some areas and if you are in one of those areas, it may be time to move on.

I regard this as an exciting time and I just wish I wasn't 60.

Regards

Mick

Thanks to avole's quote of Mr Parry I am once again drawn in to something he has written.

Mick, it may come as a surprise to you but I have no desire to know what you do or how you do it. I have to confess I did not know your job involved 'streamlining'. Perhaps you think you are so important I must know everything about you. Also, I have no wish to learn how people like you think and act, I have heard more than enough from you already. My conscience would not allow me to 'streamline' other peoples livelihood out of the window. If that's the way you get to be in the top 10% of earners you can keep it for me.
All I want is a living wage with a little extra for holidays and the occasional new black box.
And my dear fellow, 'red lining' you is the most intelligent thing I could have done under the circumstances. I would not tolerate your taunting in the real world and will not do so here either.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
" get close to your friends but get even closer to your enemies."

Regards

Mick

What the hell does this mean in the context of the forum ???

This recession will be exaggerated, just as previous recessions and booms have been - there is a tendency to travel too far because of fear and greed.

During a recession the disappearance of a net 10% of businesses is typical. Obviously, it can be devastating for those connected. Is this recession run of the mill? The remainder - most will find it hard going, but some will do well - insolvency firms, pawnbrokers, pay tv, cheaper end of takeaway ... the 'Great Depression' saw people find a little escape through musicals and cinema.

House prices - unless the long-term relationship with average earnings has been broken, the direction is down. The slight uptick - lack of credit forced some moves into this year, parents providing deposits rather than accepting zero from the bank, some think we are near the bottom and have realised the next step up is closer, it's Summer. Against this is the weight of the average earnings relationship, reduced hours/pay, increasing unemployment, increasing arrears, the direction of interest rates, tougher lending criteria, increasing taxes, Winter ...

Window cleaner - get on yer bike - advertise, employment agency ...

Brightman and golf club - money cannot buy class.

Cheers,
OW

quote:

there is going to be some severe expenditure cuts in some areas and if you are in one of those areas, it may be time to move on.

Move on from the health service and let patients cure themselves? Or move out of social services and allow disadvantaged children to look after themselves?

Mick, you really are incapable of comprehending that some people can do a job out of a sense of civic duty rather than how handsomely it will line their own pockets.

I hope Mick's meaning is to move abroad.

Malky

I was making the pointt that there are going to be cuts in public services, there has to be in order to reduce the debt, so just make sure you are not in one of those areas or in a firm dependant on those areas.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
I was making the pointt that there are going to be cuts in public services, there has to be in order to reduce the debt

How 'bout asking the banks for some of our billions back?