New Orleans is about to have another bad time

Have the US army Corps of Engineers not fixed the levees yet?

quote:

Originally posted by Sniper:
Have the US army Corps of Engineers not fixed the levees yet?

The marshes are outside the levee system, and the levees won't be finished for another three years.

Here is an article that gives all the details :

http://www.nola.com/news/index...pill_could_reac.html

quote:

http://www.nola.com/news/index...pill_could_reac.html

What a scandal.

I've noticed that BP is no longer putting on commercials about their green energy. Exxon is helping and they have experience.

PBS news one interviewee said it puts into doubt the new offshore drilling bill and gives environmentalists a lot more credibility. Yehaa!

The oil in such a place should be left where it is until companies like BP can extract it without such a catastrophic multiple systems failure. Incredible that there is not some valve that is at the well that cannot be turned off in such a situation.

Until there is a true fail-safe mode, then this kind of thing should be stopped. Simple as that.

For what it is worth the disaster makes me rather sad on several levels, but most of all I cannot help for feel sympathy for those who died on the rig itself, and the fishermen whose livelyhoods will be ruined, as well wondering how bad the long term environmental impact will be. Will we ever really be told how serious this is?

ATB from George

There is a valve George, but it has malfunctioned. Regulations do not require redundant valves, which have been used on some rigs.

Another disaster?! I thought Ellen Degeneres moved to California?

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
The oil in such a place should be left where it is until companies like BP can extract it without such a catastrophic multiple systems failure. Incredible that there is not some valve that is at the well that cannot be turned off in such a situation.

Until there is a true fail-safe mode, then this kind of thing should be stopped. Simple as that.

For what it is worth the disaster makes me rather sad on several levels, but most of all I cannot help for feel sympathy for those who died on the rig itself, and the fishermen whose livelyhoods will be ruined, as well wondering how bad the long term environmental impact will be. Will we ever really be told how serious this is?

ATB from George

Drilling is done through a blow-out preventer...



This attaches directly on the well head on the sea floor and is designed to allow the well-head to be remotely turned off in the event of over-pressure or other problems during drilling.

Operating wells have a "christmas tree" attached directly to the well head or sometimes on a riser. This should allow for isolation of the well under normal circumstances.

Not sure what this well was doing (being drilled or producing) but whatever the control device was, it failed along with the platform. You can imagine the difficulty of repairing or replacing a huge and complex valve assembly 1300m down, with high pressure oil surging through the busted unit. Think about replacing a tap in your house without being able to turn the water off. Then multiply that challenge by about a million.

No excuses being offered here. BP have an absolute reponsibility to control their environmental impact and to ensure the safety of their employees. The only winners here are the lawyers and the specialist oil disaster contracting companies who are now naming their price to assist. Is it too much of a stretch to suggest that BP may not survive this? Directors and senior managers are also likely to end up in jail.

Dear Mike,

My question is how many redundant fail-safe safety systems are required for a nuclear power station? And how many for an undersea oil well?

We have to learn, and in the case of the oil industry, the lessons should have been learned by now. It is a mature industry with more than a century's worth of accidents to base precautionary behaviour on.

As I mentioned, my sympathy is with those who, through no fault of their own will be devastated by this. And I have a concern that the environmental impact will be very significant - more significant than may be reported on the News Media, possibly the BBC excepted.

Best of luck from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

Until there is a true fail-safe mode, then this kind of thing should be stopped. Simple as that.

Right or wrong, as a society we don't hold ourselves accountable to that standard. We trade risk, death and the occasional disaster for convenience, cheap oil, economic "progress" and material wealth. It is just the way we are.

Like it or not, we all place a price on human life and the protection of the natural world.

Even when a disaster like this strikes, some of us still focus on the economic impact. The fishermen whose livelihoods will be affected etc. Fewer perhaps, see the environmental disaster as tragic in its own right.

Is it too much of a stretch to suggest that BP may not survive this?

Dear winky,

No.

It will bring down BP. The time scale to fix this is too long. Nine months minimum. No company can face that off. I will lay money on that. Perhaps the US Gov't have a shorter solution via their Military, but a destructive fine in reparation should be levied on BP if the US Gov't can fix it earlier.

Gung hoh as the US oil industry is it has nothing to show BP [as run by the former chief Lord Brown] in irresponsible taking of risk at the cost of human life and environmental destruction.

Enron failed for financial reasons and BP will fail for more practical and operational ones. And it will depart with no sympathy from me.

ATB from George

PS: Dear winky,

I try to reduce my oil consumption to the lowest practical. Not everyone thinks oil is cleaner or safer than other energy supplies. By now good old fashioned coal is begining to look quite [if not competely] respectable.

We are having local shrimp and crab with friends tonight, and again tomorrow night, as we do not know how long it will be before we can do so again.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
My question is how many redundant fail-safe safety systems are required for a nuclear power station? And how many for an undersea oil well?

After the Piper Alpha gas rig disaster it became a legal requirement to fit emergency shutdown valves to undersea gas installations in the British section of the north sea.
The emergency shutdown valve is a ball valve fitted with a spring close pneumatic actuator. For the valve to open, the pneumatic pressure must overcome the spring pressure and force required to rotate the ball. Loss of pneumatics, for whatever reason will cause the valve to slam shut.

I don’t know if ESD valves are legally required in the Gulf oil fields, but if not, maybe they should be.

The extent of BP responsibility is debatable. Factors to take into consideration are.
What was the cause of the rig exploding. Where BP responsible.
Did BP own the rig or was it leased. What responsibility do owners have.
Did BP contravene regulations. Are the regulations stringent enough.

The rig is leased from Transocean Ltd. The small print and existing law will decide who owes what to whom but be sure everyone concerned will owe money to the lawyers.

Dear fatcat,

The lack of clear-cut responsibility residing here or there is rather typical modern business, whether it be in the banking sector, or many others. It seems to me that the US oil sector is so mature that regulations concerning responsibility and safety should be well thought out and well understood.

It appears insufficient and certainly not transparent.

Perhaps this will change after this accident?

ATB from George

The lack of transparency creates a grey area where commerce and politics flourish, it was ever thus and ever will be.

At any rate, the fishermen are screwed. I have had more than a single pint with gentlemen who fish these waters. They are a good lot, and provide an outstanding product.

Unfortunately, most of these will be forced to change professions. They haven't recovered from Katrina yet.

It is sensible to plan for 2 or even 3 years bad luck, but a decade is a bit much.

So ends an era that spanned at least 80 years.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
At any rate, the fishermen are screwed. I have had more than a single pint with gentlemen who fish these waters. They are a good lot, and provide an outstanding product.

Unfortunately, most of these will be forced to change professions. They haven't recovered from Katrina yet.

It is sensible to plan for 2 or even 3 years bad luck, but a decade is a bit much.

So ends an era that spanned at least 80 years.

Mike:

If you know any of those fishermen, tell them to contact maritime lawyers in New Orleans. Or if they want some friendly advice first, any of the maritime law professors at Tulane University. They may be able to get some compensation under various regulatory schemes in the US. Pollution from vessels are covered by the Oil Pollution Act (OPA), but as this is pollution from an oil rig, I am not sure whether that US Act applies.

At last BP has clearly stated its responisibilty.

A good move in my view.

ATB from George

When the wind blows in the right direction, we can smell the oil spill from my yard. We are about 60 miles inland from the gulf.

Crude oil is a vile substance. Toxic in almost every way. It's a bit like fossilized sunshine. There's plenty in the middle east so why not close down all drilling and buy crude from that part of the world? As a matter of interest what would people in the forum be willing to pay for a gallon of gas? I've thought about this question alot and I'm not sure of my own answer. I do know that alot of diesel gets used on farms so it's not just at the pump I need to consider...