How would you react if Gordon Brown suspended Parliament for 2 months ?
Posted by: shoot6x7 on 30 December 2009
So do you believe democracy is well served if your prime minister suspended parliament (prorogued) for two months ?
That way he could realign the House of Lords to favour the Labour party; disband and then reform the parliamentary committees, to cease embarrassing investigations over Afghan detainee torture.
How would you react if this was the second time in one year that he'd done this ? Especially if the reason for the first time around was to avoid the opposition parties to join together and form a new majority and kick him out of power ? Would you be outraged ?
I am, because the "president" of Canada, he's actually a Prime Minister but thinks that Parliament is just a hindrance to his power.
Whether your political allegiances are to the right or the left this disregard of democracy and transparency of power which the conservative minority government of Canada is exercising makes me sick.
That way he could realign the House of Lords to favour the Labour party; disband and then reform the parliamentary committees, to cease embarrassing investigations over Afghan detainee torture.
How would you react if this was the second time in one year that he'd done this ? Especially if the reason for the first time around was to avoid the opposition parties to join together and form a new majority and kick him out of power ? Would you be outraged ?
I am, because the "president" of Canada, he's actually a Prime Minister but thinks that Parliament is just a hindrance to his power.
Whether your political allegiances are to the right or the left this disregard of democracy and transparency of power which the conservative minority government of Canada is exercising makes me sick.
Posted on: 30 December 2009 by MilesSmiles
To my shame I have to admit that I'm not that close to Canadian politics but I'm looking forward to visiting Toronto in Jan.
Posted on: 30 December 2009 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by shoot6x7:
So do you believe democracy is well served if your prime minister suspended parliament (prorogued) for two months ?
That way he could realign the House of Lords to favour the Labour party; disband and then reform the parliamentary committees, to cease embarrassing investigations over Afghan detainee torture.
How would you react if this was the second time in one year that he'd done this ? Especially if the reason for the first time around was to avoid the opposition parties to join together and form a new majority and kick him out of power ? Would you be outraged ?
I am, because the "president" of Canada, he's actually a Prime Minister but thinks that Parliament is just a hindrance to his power.
Whether your political allegiances are to the right or the left this disregard of democracy and transparency of power which the conservative minority government of Canada is exercising makes me sick.
Please excuse my ignorance on the matter if I fail?
I was always under the impression the Queen was the only one who can suspend or dismantle the parliament. Is it true, the P.M. can do so?
Marc
Posted on: 30 December 2009 by shoot6x7
Marc, you are correct.
However, in practical terms, our Governor General, who is the Queen's representative in Canada, appears to be doing whatever the Prime Minister wants.
When he asked for the prorogation last year she granted it. There's no indication that she will refuse this time either.
The Parliamentary system is designed to limit the powers of the current government, i.e. to stop them doing crazy things, which the next government will do the opposite of. It is there to moderate.
The House of Lords and in Canada the equivalent is the Senate, has a healthy number of the previous governments representatives (usually appointed). They often moderate the laws being passed by the current government to make sure they are sound policies for the people and not for those favoured by the current government.
Canada's current government wants to change the Senate and make members electable. If you did that you may as well have a larger house of parliament ! It maddens me when I see the British developed system being bastardized to suit the wants of a minority government. Especially one that is dismantling the watchdogs which keeps the current government accountable to the people. That is democracy surely ?
However, in practical terms, our Governor General, who is the Queen's representative in Canada, appears to be doing whatever the Prime Minister wants.
When he asked for the prorogation last year she granted it. There's no indication that she will refuse this time either.
The Parliamentary system is designed to limit the powers of the current government, i.e. to stop them doing crazy things, which the next government will do the opposite of. It is there to moderate.
The House of Lords and in Canada the equivalent is the Senate, has a healthy number of the previous governments representatives (usually appointed). They often moderate the laws being passed by the current government to make sure they are sound policies for the people and not for those favoured by the current government.
Canada's current government wants to change the Senate and make members electable. If you did that you may as well have a larger house of parliament ! It maddens me when I see the British developed system being bastardized to suit the wants of a minority government. Especially one that is dismantling the watchdogs which keeps the current government accountable to the people. That is democracy surely ?
Posted on: 30 December 2009 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by shoot6x7:
Marc, you are correct.
However, in practical terms, our Governor General, who is the Queen's representative in Canada, appears to be doing whatever the Prime Minister wants.
When he asked for the prorogation last year she granted it. There's no indication that she will refuse this time either.
The Parliamentary system is designed to limit the powers of the current government, i.e. to stop them doing crazy things, which the next government will do the opposite of. It is there to moderate.
The House of Lords and in Canada the equivalent is the Senate, has a healthy number of the previous governments representatives (usually appointed). They often moderate the laws being passed by the current government to make sure they are sound policies for the people and not for those favoured by the current government.
Canada's current government wants to change the Senate and make members electable. If you did that you may as well have a larger house of parliament ! It maddens me when I see the British developed system being bastardized to suit the wants of a minority government. Especially one that is dismantling the watchdogs which keeps the current government accountable to the people. That is democracy surely ?
Unfortunately, yes.
Marc
Posted on: 30 December 2009 by Jeremy Marchant
History would appear to tell us that the bigger the outrage perpetrated by politicians, the more likely they are to get away with it (not Ceausescu perhaps)
Posted on: 30 December 2009 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:
History would appear to tell us that the bigger the outrage perpetrated by politicians, the more likely they are to get away with it (not Ceausescu perhaps)
It has been funny that way, hasn't it?
Marc
Posted on: 30 December 2009 by mongo
Politicians are the universe's way of telling you polish up and ready your sniper rifle.
Democracy is taking a hell of a beating all over the place it would seem. But there is good reason to suppose that it has always been so.
And we're still holding up.
Just about.
For now.
I never think about it in the dark.
Democracy is taking a hell of a beating all over the place it would seem. But there is good reason to suppose that it has always been so.
And we're still holding up.
Just about.
For now.
I never think about it in the dark.
Posted on: 30 December 2009 by DaveMS
Excuse my ignorance but how can direclty electing a member of your parliament be antidemocratic?
We have an elected senate here in Australia, however senators serve two terms and only half the senate seats are up for election at each election to try and smooth out the swings of the political pendulum. The senate in practice is rarely controlled completely by the party in power and does serve its function as a house of review. Is it perfect? No, but I don't think it is worse than any other democracy.
We have an elected senate here in Australia, however senators serve two terms and only half the senate seats are up for election at each election to try and smooth out the swings of the political pendulum. The senate in practice is rarely controlled completely by the party in power and does serve its function as a house of review. Is it perfect? No, but I don't think it is worse than any other democracy.
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by Mike Dudley
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by shoot6x7
My point about the Senate is a comment on disrupting the Parliamentary mechanism.
The undemocratic comment is related to the removal of the mechanisms that ensure transparency and accountability of the party in power.
The undemocratic comment is related to the removal of the mechanisms that ensure transparency and accountability of the party in power.
Posted on: 01 January 2010 by Steve O
quote:How would you react if Gordon Brown suspended Parliament for 2 months ?
I'd much rather he suspended himself with a noose.
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 04 January 2010 by Chris Kelly
quote:I'd much rather he suspended himself with a noose.
He'd need help. Left to his own devices he would surely f*** it up.
Posted on: 04 January 2010 by Mr Underhill
Hi Shoot,
I don't have any clear view on this, but amongst the thoughts going through my head are:
1. Was Parliamentary reform in their manifesto?
2. Have they clearly laid out the new system?
3. Has it been debated?
4. How does the person on the [Clapham] Omnibus feel about the changes?
With respect to the aborted changes the UK Gov. has left unfinished with respect to our democratic institutions there was never ANY serious thought of making the Lords elected; no doubt it would threaten the primacy of the Commons, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
In fact we have seen an ongoing erosion of the separation of powers in the UK, including the setting up of something called the 'Supreme Court', but without the powers of a US Supreme Court.
One thing that REALLY worries me is the lack of concern / interest of most the people I know, hence Q4 above.
With the changes being wrought using terrorism as the lever, and changes to our fundamental Parliamentary systems, the expression 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' carries a worrying resonance for me, and the 'good intentions' is even an optimistic appraisal!
The UK needs a written constitution, with a high barrier to prevent change being too easy and high handed.
Canada may be in the same position?
M
I don't have any clear view on this, but amongst the thoughts going through my head are:
1. Was Parliamentary reform in their manifesto?
2. Have they clearly laid out the new system?
3. Has it been debated?
4. How does the person on the [Clapham] Omnibus feel about the changes?
With respect to the aborted changes the UK Gov. has left unfinished with respect to our democratic institutions there was never ANY serious thought of making the Lords elected; no doubt it would threaten the primacy of the Commons, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
In fact we have seen an ongoing erosion of the separation of powers in the UK, including the setting up of something called the 'Supreme Court', but without the powers of a US Supreme Court.
One thing that REALLY worries me is the lack of concern / interest of most the people I know, hence Q4 above.
With the changes being wrought using terrorism as the lever, and changes to our fundamental Parliamentary systems, the expression 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' carries a worrying resonance for me, and the 'good intentions' is even an optimistic appraisal!
The UK needs a written constitution, with a high barrier to prevent change being too easy and high handed.
Canada may be in the same position?
M
Posted on: 05 January 2010 by shoot6x7
Canada has the Charter of Rights and Freedom's, so a form of constitution, but I don't think it ensures the democratic process itself.
I don't know why other people's blood isn't boiling ... chairpersons of five of our watchdogs have been fired or contracts not renewed because their actions have embarrassed the government. Whereas they've done their job and identified shortcomings in the system. Three examples below:
1) Nuclear Regulator - fired for preventing the Chalk River Medical Isotopes facility to reopen as it didn't have sufficient earthquake redundancy safety systems.
2) Watchdog for Military Police - for bringing to light Afghan torture allegations and wrong doing by Canadian Military Police.
3) Watchdog for Royal Canadian Mounted Police - for bringing to light the flaws of the RCMP investigating it's own people when it's own members have been caught breaking the law. Including the taser death at Vancouver International airport.
I don't know why other people's blood isn't boiling ... chairpersons of five of our watchdogs have been fired or contracts not renewed because their actions have embarrassed the government. Whereas they've done their job and identified shortcomings in the system. Three examples below:
1) Nuclear Regulator - fired for preventing the Chalk River Medical Isotopes facility to reopen as it didn't have sufficient earthquake redundancy safety systems.
2) Watchdog for Military Police - for bringing to light Afghan torture allegations and wrong doing by Canadian Military Police.
3) Watchdog for Royal Canadian Mounted Police - for bringing to light the flaws of the RCMP investigating it's own people when it's own members have been caught breaking the law. Including the taser death at Vancouver International airport.
Posted on: 06 January 2010 by Mr Underhill
Worrying isn't it.
We seem to have bought up a population of cynical fatalists who prononce all politicians as the same and unworthy; not without evidence.
Are we Weimar Republics, sleepwalking into a dystopian future?
I keep trying to get people engaged, especially youngsters.
M
We seem to have bought up a population of cynical fatalists who prononce all politicians as the same and unworthy; not without evidence.
Are we Weimar Republics, sleepwalking into a dystopian future?
I keep trying to get people engaged, especially youngsters.
M
Posted on: 06 January 2010 by mykel
ya I'm pissed.
Harper and his boys are bodering on facism.
Have spoken to a few people about it and most don't know, don't care, nor do they know the repercussions. Disgusting. And we wonder why the vote turnout is so poor....
When the going get tough - run away.
michael (ontario)
Harper and his boys are bodering on facism.
Have spoken to a few people about it and most don't know, don't care, nor do they know the repercussions. Disgusting. And we wonder why the vote turnout is so poor....
When the going get tough - run away.
michael (ontario)