Garrard 401, Linn LP12,OL or Michell Gyro?
Posted by: faz on 14 February 2004
My Systemdek IIX tt/RB250 is now due for replacement. I love the sound my Naim CD3 produces so can anyone tell me which of the above would be the nearest match soundwise to the CD3? I have considered the OL motor mod but I'm open to suggestions.Whatever I end up will probably be secondhand and I'm quite happy to indulge in some DIY; ie a plinth for the 401.
Posted on: 14 February 2004 by Peter Stockwell
quote:
Originally posted by faz:
My Systemdek IIX tt/RB250 is now due for replacement. ... and I'm quite happy to indulge in some DIY; ie a plinth for the 401.
Making an effective plinth for a 401 is a lot harder than it looks. It's worth the cost of investing in a Loricraft or Bastin plinth. To my ears the 401 has a more solid grip on the rhythm of music than an LP12, but here on the Naim forum I'm in a minority.
Peter
Posted on: 14 February 2004 by j8hn
Best bet s/h is an LP12 loads around easy upgrade path easy repairs and servicing + good sound and no depreciation on s/h prices - in fact buy wisely and you'll make money.
Too much rumble with a 401.
Too much rumble with a 401.
Posted on: 14 February 2004 by faz
j8hn
The ability to upgrade a cheapish LP12 over a period of time does appeal. This is what attracted me to Naim eqpt-the audio equivalent of 'Lego' is how my local dealer described it!
I know that the decks that I've short-listed are good (and bad) in their own way but it's getting a good audio match with my CD3 that is my main goal.
Thanks for your input guys. Anyone else care to offer their views? In the meantime I'm off to research makig a Garrard plinth on the net-just so I know what I'm up against.
The ability to upgrade a cheapish LP12 over a period of time does appeal. This is what attracted me to Naim eqpt-the audio equivalent of 'Lego' is how my local dealer described it!
I know that the decks that I've short-listed are good (and bad) in their own way but it's getting a good audio match with my CD3 that is my main goal.
Thanks for your input guys. Anyone else care to offer their views? In the meantime I'm off to research makig a Garrard plinth on the net-just so I know what I'm up against.
Posted on: 14 February 2004 by Steve Toy
quote:
Too much rumble with a 401.
Isn't that where the heavyweight plinth comes into its own?
Regards,
Steve.
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by bjorne
Rumble is not much affected by the plinth,I believe. I have read that it's caused by both the drive sistem and the original power supply(?) and that both can be fixed. I have never heard one unfortunately.
Faz, if you don't want to spend so much I'm sure there is still a lot of life in the Systemdek. It's a good deck. You can tweak it quite a bit, try removing the baseboard, isolation, setup etc. I believe AudioNote have spare parts and also OL might be worth checkin out. Imo it's a very good deck that can be used with better arms than you normally see.
Let us know when you find something interesting.
Faz, if you don't want to spend so much I'm sure there is still a lot of life in the Systemdek. It's a good deck. You can tweak it quite a bit, try removing the baseboard, isolation, setup etc. I believe AudioNote have spare parts and also OL might be worth checkin out. Imo it's a very good deck that can be used with better arms than you normally see.
Let us know when you find something interesting.
Posted on: 15 February 2004 by faz
My trawl on the net for info on a 401 has shown that there's definitely a need for a big,heavy plinth. Could a be bit much for my modest rack.
Bjorn,
The idea of modding the Systemdek is one I've considered. However I don't really want to spend a fortune on upgrading a budget tt.I have however considered the OL motor mod but have yet to find a good, long-term review on this.
One reason for changing the deck is that it has always appeared to distort the sound on some records. Over the years I've changed the arm and obviously the cartridge,as well as amplification but the problem persists.Some people have said that this deck does have a harsh sound at times so I feel that it is probably time for a change.
Audionote tend not to stock parts any more for the IIx. Their current tt may look similar but it is quite different under the skin.
It's a shame that Linn & Michell don't have a forum like this one-it would certainly help.
Bjorn,
The idea of modding the Systemdek is one I've considered. However I don't really want to spend a fortune on upgrading a budget tt.I have however considered the OL motor mod but have yet to find a good, long-term review on this.
One reason for changing the deck is that it has always appeared to distort the sound on some records. Over the years I've changed the arm and obviously the cartridge,as well as amplification but the problem persists.Some people have said that this deck does have a harsh sound at times so I feel that it is probably time for a change.
Audionote tend not to stock parts any more for the IIx. Their current tt may look similar but it is quite different under the skin.
It's a shame that Linn & Michell don't have a forum like this one-it would certainly help.
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by Peter Stockwell
quote:
Originally posted by j8hn:
Best bet s/h is an LP12 loads around easy upgrade path easy repairs and servicing + good sound and no depreciation on s/h prices - in fact buy wisely and you'll make money.
Too much rumble with a 401.
The Linn, whilst I don't like it, is not a bad table and has the virtue of being very easily resellable. So once you've realised your mistake
you can sell it on to somebody who doesn't know any better 
. Serisously for £500-£600 it's got to be good value. And it looks LP12 prices are moving upwards.I've had a 401 for 5 years and it has never audibly rumbled. The 401 Rumble is a myth. It's two major problems are the energy that the motor unit generates, and its' speedvariation over time. The motor needs to run with the minimum of voltage, i.e. it barely has enough to turn the platter. The speed variation is dependant on temperature,a s the motor warms up it speeds up, so the voltage or load has to be adjusted to compensate. Without a power supply the eddy brake is tehre to adjust the load. In fact the speed variation is less with with the eddy brake, but the motor puts more vibration into th eplinth system.
This vibration is 'heard' as a reduction in detail and not in it's own right.
Peter
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by faz
Peter,
Many thanks for your views on the 401. I have to say that I've always liked the old 'Direct Drive' turntables-I used to own a Goldring GL75 about 20 years ago and I now regret taking it down the tip!!
If I could find a cheapish 401 to experminent with I might reconsider it. My concern is that my hi-fi stand is 500mm x 430mm and might not be big enough for the mighty dreadnought of a 401 plinth.
Many thanks for your views on the 401. I have to say that I've always liked the old 'Direct Drive' turntables-I used to own a Goldring GL75 about 20 years ago and I now regret taking it down the tip!!
If I could find a cheapish 401 to experminent with I might reconsider it. My concern is that my hi-fi stand is 500mm x 430mm and might not be big enough for the mighty dreadnought of a 401 plinth.
Posted on: 16 February 2004 by effinity
401 fits fine on top of a Mana stand 
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Peter Stockwell
quote:
Originally posted by faz:
If I could find a cheapish 401 to experminent with I might reconsider it. My concern is that my hi-fi stand is 500mm x 430mm and might not be big enough for the mighty dreadnought of a 401 plinth.
500mm x 430mm is big enough, for one thing you can just inset the feet that you put on your plinth enough to compensate. My current plinth is 47 by 43, or thereabouts. I'd give you my old plinth if you came to fetch it, it would certainly give you a model on which to improve! All up my current plinth with, arm and motor unit and lid is c. 20kg, the old one was 22kg.
Peter
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by RichS
Hi guys,
Just a quick note - you don't necessarily have to go for a very heavy plinth.
I'm currently running a 401 and Inconito RB300 in a DIY plinth. The plinth is a copy of the Loricraft Audio 'Skeletal' design. This design has the advantage of keeping the weight down. Have a look at the Loricraft website for details. Its fairly easy to do a copy - I can help with some of the details if you need them.
My 401 was serviced by Loricraft and I sounds superb - there aren't many turntables that can do bass like a well sorted Garrard. And Peter's right - the rumble thing is a myth from the days when the decks where mounted in nothing more sophisticated than a gloryfied cardboard box instead of a decent plinth.
You 'd have a lot of fun with a 401....
Rich
Just a quick note - you don't necessarily have to go for a very heavy plinth.
I'm currently running a 401 and Inconito RB300 in a DIY plinth. The plinth is a copy of the Loricraft Audio 'Skeletal' design. This design has the advantage of keeping the weight down. Have a look at the Loricraft website for details. Its fairly easy to do a copy - I can help with some of the details if you need them.
My 401 was serviced by Loricraft and I sounds superb - there aren't many turntables that can do bass like a well sorted Garrard. And Peter's right - the rumble thing is a myth from the days when the decks where mounted in nothing more sophisticated than a gloryfied cardboard box instead of a decent plinth.
You 'd have a lot of fun with a 401....
Rich
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by effinity
"And Peter's right - the rumble thing is a myth from the days when the decks where mounted in nothing more sophisticated than a gloryfied cardboard box instead of a decent plinth.
You 'd have a lot of fun with a 401...."
Exactly right! Avoid the early, hollow SME plinth and lid, they look quite nice, see them on ebay etc on occasion, and pick up any sound or vibration within 10 metres to add to the mix!
Theories abound don't they? but I've had much success with (Bastin type i suppose) a plinth made from 7 inch thick layers of mdf finished in piano black.
I've had it 8 yrs, it was made by a (now retired) engineer who had definite ideas about high mass. Does wonderful bass, extended and deep, well controlled.
Steadily I've upgraded from the original 401/sme3009 to a pristine 401 with OL Silver 250 arm and Ort. Kontrapunkt B cart, all built around the same, mdf, high mass plinth.
I attempted to post a photo but file too big, i'll see if i can reduce and try again.
Steve
[This message was edited by effinity on TUESDAY 17 February 2004 at 09:59.]
[This message was edited by effinity on TUESDAY 17 February 2004 at 10:02.]
You 'd have a lot of fun with a 401...."
Exactly right! Avoid the early, hollow SME plinth and lid, they look quite nice, see them on ebay etc on occasion, and pick up any sound or vibration within 10 metres to add to the mix!
Theories abound don't they? but I've had much success with (Bastin type i suppose) a plinth made from 7 inch thick layers of mdf finished in piano black.
I've had it 8 yrs, it was made by a (now retired) engineer who had definite ideas about high mass. Does wonderful bass, extended and deep, well controlled.
Steadily I've upgraded from the original 401/sme3009 to a pristine 401 with OL Silver 250 arm and Ort. Kontrapunkt B cart, all built around the same, mdf, high mass plinth.
I attempted to post a photo but file too big, i'll see if i can reduce and try again.
Steve
[This message was edited by effinity on TUESDAY 17 February 2004 at 09:59.]
[This message was edited by effinity on TUESDAY 17 February 2004 at 10:02.]
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by effinity
another angle!
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by effinity
really got me going now!
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Peter Stockwell
quote:
Originally posted by effinity:
Exactly right! Avoid the early, hollow SME plinth and lid, they look quite nice, see them on ebay etc on occasion, and pick up any sound or vibration within 10 metres to add to the mix!
Theories abound don't they? but I've had much success with (Bastin type i suppose) a plinth made from 7 inch thick layers of mdf finished in piano black.
I've had it 8 yrs, it was made by a (now retired) engineer who had definite ideas about high mass. Does wonderful bass, extended and deep, well controlled.
Nice pics Steve. Getting the mass and material right on a 401 plinth is something of a Black art. MDF is easy to work and not a bad choice, but Birch ply is better, because the MDF kills the high frequency sparkle, whereas the Birch has a more even handed effect. Info on plinth material found here: plinth construction and materials
Incendentally, the site is very interesting about real Direct Drive turntables and gives some food for thought.
Peter
[This message was edited by Peter Stockwell on TUESDAY 17 February 2004 at 12:32.]
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Basil
Extracts from April 1993 HiF1 World.
Spurred by growing interest in the famous Garrard 401 turntable, Noel Keywood dusts the cobwebs off his own and brings it up to date.
I once bought a gorgeous new hi-fi turntable, the best there was - and it rumbled. I remember the disappointment now and I never quite accepted that this wonderfully built machine, a Garrard 401, could really rumble so badly. It had an excellent reputation even then, back in the early Seventies, and boy did I ever want to own one. The massive cast platter with its machined-in strobe markings was incomparable and it has never really been bettered even now.
I collected a 'solid wood' plinth from a company in Peterborough. This, I was told, would cure the rumble. It didn't. That massive motor and the huge rubber idler wheel looked far too purposeful to be compromised in their activities by a few bits of real wood, I remember thinking and so it was.
All that was back in prehistory, I when, in the naivety of youth, I thought that life had just started when I got a job on Hi-Fi Answers magazine. I could not bring myself to give up on that Garrard it really was so beautifully engineered. Only years earlier I had been crawling around the spectacular frame of Concorde, immersed in the finest engineering anyone could hope to see, and even with that as a contrast the 401 didn't look like the duffer it turned out to be. For some reason, I never did I contact Garrard to tell them my 401 rumbled like an express train. I'm not I sure I wanted to believe it myself so, hoping that one day I might learn how to suppress the huge 25hz tone it produced, I carefully put it up into the loft.
[This message was edited by Basil on TUESDAY 17 February 2004 at 16:23.]
Spurred by growing interest in the famous Garrard 401 turntable, Noel Keywood dusts the cobwebs off his own and brings it up to date.
I once bought a gorgeous new hi-fi turntable, the best there was - and it rumbled. I remember the disappointment now and I never quite accepted that this wonderfully built machine, a Garrard 401, could really rumble so badly. It had an excellent reputation even then, back in the early Seventies, and boy did I ever want to own one. The massive cast platter with its machined-in strobe markings was incomparable and it has never really been bettered even now.
I collected a 'solid wood' plinth from a company in Peterborough. This, I was told, would cure the rumble. It didn't. That massive motor and the huge rubber idler wheel looked far too purposeful to be compromised in their activities by a few bits of real wood, I remember thinking and so it was.
All that was back in prehistory, I when, in the naivety of youth, I thought that life had just started when I got a job on Hi-Fi Answers magazine. I could not bring myself to give up on that Garrard it really was so beautifully engineered. Only years earlier I had been crawling around the spectacular frame of Concorde, immersed in the finest engineering anyone could hope to see, and even with that as a contrast the 401 didn't look like the duffer it turned out to be. For some reason, I never did I contact Garrard to tell them my 401 rumbled like an express train. I'm not I sure I wanted to believe it myself so, hoping that one day I might learn how to suppress the huge 25hz tone it produced, I carefully put it up into the loft.
[This message was edited by Basil on TUESDAY 17 February 2004 at 16:23.]
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by effinity
"I collected a 'solid wood' plinth from a company in Peterborough. This, I was told, would cure the rumble. It didn't. That massive motor and the huge rubber idler wheel looked far too purposeful to be compromised in their activities by a few bits of real wood, I remember thinking and so it was."
Sounds like you were on a downer right from the start there Basil, sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, sure it was'nt the after jet of the Concorde rumbling in your ears? Phantoms cracking off 'The Eagle'at sea had that effect on me for years!
Seriously though, there are enough people about who have sought and found nirvana in a rumbleless world of Garrard 401, so are you going to get yours out of the attic and give it a go?
Steve
Sounds like you were on a downer right from the start there Basil, sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, sure it was'nt the after jet of the Concorde rumbling in your ears? Phantoms cracking off 'The Eagle'at sea had that effect on me for years!
Seriously though, there are enough people about who have sought and found nirvana in a rumbleless world of Garrard 401, so are you going to get yours out of the attic and give it a go?
Steve
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Peter Stockwell
quote:
Originally posted by Basil:
Extracts from April 1993 HiF1 World.
...a gorgeous new hi-fi turntable, the best there was - and it rumbled. .... a Garrard 401, could really rumble so badly. It had an excellent reputation even then,... This, I was told, would cure the rumble. It didn't. For some reason, I never did I contact Garrard to tell them my 401 rumbled like an express train. I'm not I sure I wanted to believe it myself so, hoping that one day I might learn how to suppress the huge 25hz tone it produced, I carefully put it up into the loft.
[This message was edited by Basil on TUESDAY 17 February 2004 at 16:23.]
What can I say, maybe NK's 401 rumbled in the seventies, but Hifi World used to have the 401 as a recommendation in their pages. I can assure you mine doesn't rumble, never has since I've owned it. There are at least a half a dozen happy 401 users on here, and maybe some 301 users too. Just because something is written on paper, doesn't mean it's true (cf. Blair and Bush and the WMD of Iraq, for example).
Anyway, it's just as well the 401 has the nasty reputation, that means thay can be bouight at reasonable prices.
Peter
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Jean-Marc
I am very pleased with my ol' Thorens TD124 Idler wheel. It is currently mounted in a DIY heavy plinth and performs really well, especially since I've fitted an Aro on it.
I have kept it over my former LP12......
My 2 cents
Jean-Marc
I have kept it over my former LP12......
My 2 cents
Jean-Marc
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by faz
Thanks for your views (and great piccies). The one thing I haven't seen any mention of is how the 401 handles the higher frequencies. Is it 'veiled' as one Hi-Fi mag puts it? Is the 401 a good match with Naim amps?
No-one seems to have mentioned the Origin Live motor mods or Gyrodec.Has anyone got any views on these?
No-one seems to have mentioned the Origin Live motor mods or Gyrodec.Has anyone got any views on these?
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Pete Lewthwaite
OK, you asked for some comments particularly on the Gyrodec. Before I come to this let me say that I have never heard a CD3 so I do not know your reference sound.
At the risk of boring every one, a little history. I bought my first turntable 30 years ago. At this time it was relatively easy to compare them at a dealers. Anyway one of the turntables I auditioned was a 401. I can't remember what plinth it was in but I do remember thinking it sounded like someone had thrown a couple of heavy curtains over the speakers, which I think was due to the rumble effect. However a couple of years ago I managed to gatecrash a demo with a Loricraft. Either my ears or my memory are defective or this was no relation to the 401 I heard all those years ago, the sound was as solid and energetic as anything I have heard.
To continue putting you all to sleep, my first turntable was an Ariston RD11 which I replaced after a few years with an LP12, this I consider to be the biggest mistake I have made in Hi-Fi (I think I may get a few comments about this). I bought it unheard (stupid or what?) due to all the rave publicity it was getting, but I just could not live with its coloured presentation and fickle setup.
Therefore in 1986 I changed again, this time (after a long demo) to the Gyrodec which I still use daily and am totally happy with. It is essentially a very neutral sounding turntable, though possibly a little light-weight for some. Don't get the idea that it is a sluggard, it handles timing and dynamics very well and can really dig a performance out of the groove, it just does not produce as "large" a sound as the last 401 I heard (you might need an Orbe for this). However I find overall that it just plays music and allows me to hear performance as the musicians intended. At this point I should mention that most of my listening is classical and opera with a reasonable amount of Jazz and a little of (almost) everything else. I should also add that the Gyrodec is easy to set up and remains stable for years, I suspect the 401 will also be easy to set up as it does not use a suspended sub-chassis.
Hopefully I have given you some idea of the Gyrodec. It may or may not be what you are looking for but good luck in your search.
Pete L.
At the risk of boring every one, a little history. I bought my first turntable 30 years ago. At this time it was relatively easy to compare them at a dealers. Anyway one of the turntables I auditioned was a 401. I can't remember what plinth it was in but I do remember thinking it sounded like someone had thrown a couple of heavy curtains over the speakers, which I think was due to the rumble effect. However a couple of years ago I managed to gatecrash a demo with a Loricraft. Either my ears or my memory are defective or this was no relation to the 401 I heard all those years ago, the sound was as solid and energetic as anything I have heard.
To continue putting you all to sleep, my first turntable was an Ariston RD11 which I replaced after a few years with an LP12, this I consider to be the biggest mistake I have made in Hi-Fi (I think I may get a few comments about this). I bought it unheard (stupid or what?) due to all the rave publicity it was getting, but I just could not live with its coloured presentation and fickle setup.
Therefore in 1986 I changed again, this time (after a long demo) to the Gyrodec which I still use daily and am totally happy with. It is essentially a very neutral sounding turntable, though possibly a little light-weight for some. Don't get the idea that it is a sluggard, it handles timing and dynamics very well and can really dig a performance out of the groove, it just does not produce as "large" a sound as the last 401 I heard (you might need an Orbe for this). However I find overall that it just plays music and allows me to hear performance as the musicians intended. At this point I should mention that most of my listening is classical and opera with a reasonable amount of Jazz and a little of (almost) everything else. I should also add that the Gyrodec is easy to set up and remains stable for years, I suspect the 401 will also be easy to set up as it does not use a suspended sub-chassis.
Hopefully I have given you some idea of the Gyrodec. It may or may not be what you are looking for but good luck in your search.
Pete L.
Posted on: 17 February 2004 by Basil
OK, this is going to annoy many of you out there.
Faz, a question. Do you want something to play Records on or something to tinker endlessly with?
Faz, a question. Do you want something to play Records on or something to tinker endlessly with?
Posted on: 18 February 2004 by faz
Basil,
Something to play records on.
Something to play records on.
Posted on: 18 February 2004 by Basil
Rather than try and convince you to use the same Record Player as myself, try and find a dealer or dealers that can let you hear an LP12, Gyrodek or a 401.
Posted on: 20 March 2004 by JohnMak
Basil ..... that was a very selective and misleading excerpt you took from Noels very positive article on the Garrard 401.
I have a copy of it here and will add part of the next few paragraphs.
If any Garrad owners would like a full copy, I'm happy to email it.
See as follows another excerpt from the same article :-
" ........It was great to be proved wrong. The Garrard had miraculously become very quiet. Even vinyl roar seemed in good check At enormous volume I could hear the speaker cones flapping hard, stimulated by record warps, but there was no sign of feedback into the plinth, from loudspeakers about six feet away. Only the spectrum analyser could tell whether a hint of that 25Hz rumble remained. But if it did, I couldn't hear it.
I wasn't expecting miracles, and certainly not this degree of improve- ment. The 401 hasn't just been rejuvenated; it has been transformed, entering the mainstream of hi-fi life splendidly after twenty years of idleness. It is effectively new, having never been used in earnest before, of course. But from the moment I found it fully useable all this changed. The cartridge was installed, the arm carefully set up and LPs started to build up in little, vertical groups around the lounge as I set about enjoying them again.
It's not that I haven't been able to enjoy them before, but solid-plinth turntables are very easy to use, especially if you hand-cue, like me; I just cannot use a lift/lower. With a rock-solid plinth offering a firm foundation, and with a beautifully machined, magic-wand of an arm, the 401 finally proved what I had always suspected: it is a superb machine to own and use."
I have a copy of it here and will add part of the next few paragraphs.
If any Garrad owners would like a full copy, I'm happy to email it.
See as follows another excerpt from the same article :-
" ........It was great to be proved wrong. The Garrard had miraculously become very quiet. Even vinyl roar seemed in good check At enormous volume I could hear the speaker cones flapping hard, stimulated by record warps, but there was no sign of feedback into the plinth, from loudspeakers about six feet away. Only the spectrum analyser could tell whether a hint of that 25Hz rumble remained. But if it did, I couldn't hear it.
I wasn't expecting miracles, and certainly not this degree of improve- ment. The 401 hasn't just been rejuvenated; it has been transformed, entering the mainstream of hi-fi life splendidly after twenty years of idleness. It is effectively new, having never been used in earnest before, of course. But from the moment I found it fully useable all this changed. The cartridge was installed, the arm carefully set up and LPs started to build up in little, vertical groups around the lounge as I set about enjoying them again.
It's not that I haven't been able to enjoy them before, but solid-plinth turntables are very easy to use, especially if you hand-cue, like me; I just cannot use a lift/lower. With a rock-solid plinth offering a firm foundation, and with a beautifully machined, magic-wand of an arm, the 401 finally proved what I had always suspected: it is a superb machine to own and use."