run in/warmup...

Based on messages that I've read on the forum, break-in is required not only when it's new, but also if it's been sitting switched off for a few months. If Naim were to break it in itself, and then it sat in a stockroom for a half a year, break-in would required again.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

mike h:

quote:

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break-in is required not only when it's new, but also if it's been sitting switched off for a few months.

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i actually didnt know this. i thought "break in" was only ever required for new components. and "warm up" if its been broken-in before. dunno for sure though. however, given that stuff is mostly made to order (i believe?), there would be no need for it to sit around at naim as the customer would be waiting for it.

enjoy

ken

I have no patience and cannot resist listening to new equipment from the moment it is plugged in - the only real exception was the sbls as I did give the mastic a chance to set by keeping the volume low.

The only product that actually disappointed me on first hearing in my system was when my 250 replaced my 110. Obviously it improved as it was run in and while it may well now need a service it remains a stunning amplifier.

Out of interest I have just put the 110 into my system, cold out of a cupboard unused for years, to replace a warm to the touch 250 that has not been powered down since January.

Not surprisingly it sounded awful in comparison initially - it strangled the music - but even as I type it is starting to improve!!!!!

Running in / warming up is part of the fun.

Chris

chris, many thanks.

quote:

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Running in / warming up is part of the fun.

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suspected that much, but wasnt sure.

i often wonder about the validity of immediate conclusions we may reach after an a/b test involving powering down equipment...

enjoy

ken

Ken c,

I just voted for Naim (or the dealer ?) to break-in (or run-in ?) all their new kit before dispatch.

Reason ? I spent over 5 weeks a few years back with a brand new CDS1 waiting for it to sound even good (never mind fantastic !). Sure it seemed to get better each week, but I wasn't convinced that it was EVER going to sound right and must have phoned Grahams a dozen times to question things. Fortunately Paul kept reasuring me it would eventually come good or else they would sort it out/replace it/give me a refund etc. I didn't enjoy that 5 weeks at all.

Same with the 82 then the supercap then the 52. And looking back probably the 72 and the 250. On reflection it seems a wonder that any of us ever got started with Naim in the first place!

Quote 'i often wonder about the validity of immediate conclusions we may reach after an a/b test involving powering down equipment...'

I notice that Grahams keep their kit powered up in a standby room, so its only swithched off momentarily before a dem. Many dealers try to set stuff up and leave it overnight for a 'big' dem. But I do agree with your question, however other factors such as supports, cables, room acoustics, volume, all conspire to make any dem difficult IMHO. And if he dealer lets me take it home for 2 months to warm up etc - well perhaps I begin to feel uncomfortable and kind of 'obliged to buy'.

difficult isn't it ?

Cheers

Don

don, many thanks for your thoughts on this. i guess the reason i raised the issue is that any day now, my cdsii will arrive and therefore i have n-weeks of run-in/warmup before the thing is in full song. and what of the new dynavector xx2 on a reset lp12 -- anxious times ahead!!!

i always thought run-in only applied to new equipment only and is something to do once; and warmup was something that applied to run-in equipment that has been powered down for a while -- but one or two postings here indicate that my understanding is in fact false? anyone else care to comment??

i recall sometime ago when i was having problems with my system swapping in a cold 52 and the system being immediately transformed musically. what of warmup then?

the poll results indicate that most people actually prefer to do the running in themselves. however when you read the actual experiences of people running in (their) equipment (see for example, chris thomas review of the nap500, martin colloms on cdsii and i think a review of nap135's by paul messenger) -- this process really doesnt sound that "enjoyable"...

my recent experience of run in is with my supercap for the snaxo. i sense the sound of my system is mellowing with time, and i attribute that to the supercap warming up. of course, it could also be other things, who knows??? the nice thing is that the system is getting better as each week passes...

thanks don and

enjoy

ken

I recently bought a used 72. It had been out of a system for only a day or two. It took a couple of days to get going properly and continued to improve for 2-3 weeks. However there was a noticable improvement to my 62 from the outset!

I wonder what the timescales really are for warm up when switched off. Is it OK for just minutes or hours before deterioration? Had a few power cuts where I live earlier this year.

Milan

I rerouted my speaker and power bar cable on Sunday, which required that I power down the system. It was off for only a minute or two, yet it took between 12 and 24 hours to stabilize again.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Don. Intersting, your response. Try this scenario... you've paid a deposit, ordered your NAP500... it's going to take a while to deliver, but.... with your run-in demands it's now going to extend the wait by more than Six Months!. Will you still prefer the pre-burned kit?

Mike. I know the "switched-off for time" argument applies to NACA5, but don't agree that it applies also to electronics. burned-in is just that - burned-in. Sure, electrolytics take a little time to re-form if they've been disconnected for long periods, but will not accept that this applies to all other electronic components (say, coils, carbon resistors, joints etc). After burn-in, there's just warm-up. Anyone else?

Rico - all your base are belong to us.

I was thinking mostly of the capacitors. I realize that the secondary burn-in won't take as long as the first, but it's a burn-in nonetheless.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Just a quick word to let you know that my SBL PXOs gave one HUGE Nirvanal Nudge today.

I don't know what happened inside that lirttle box of plastic but I do know that things really sounded different today.

Pure Magic

and it's getting better - growin' stronger...

P.

yeah, i know the experience exactly P. not quite consistent with the (gradual) warmup process. what is interesting is that one can describe the clear improvements after they have happened -- but quite hard to predict what course the run-in/warmup is going to take. or, perhaps someone can? let's hear from you then...

when my cdsii comes, i will make sure that i am happy with the configuration so that i can just leave the player to run in without any distracting changes. then i will assess how long it will take to come on song... but, will i know when the burn in is complete? or does it keep improving till other age related issues start taking over, (recaps, etc)

naughty, but interesting question: is a new (cold) cdsii better than a fully warmed up cdx/xps? cd5?

enjoy

ken

[This message was edited by ken c on TUESDAY 12 June 2001 at 21:01.]

you can tell the superiority of a better product/system set up even when the thing is stone cold.

naim listen to everything that they make and i am sure not everything is fully warmed up/burnt in, etc

but thorough experience you can tell whether something works or not.

i am sure you are right, dev.

results of the poll, on a very low turnout, indicate that most people (>70%) actually enjoy the run-in/warmup process.

enjoy

ken

Rico,

Hi, your quote (good point actually)

"you've paid a deposit, ordered your NAP500... it's going to take a while to deliver, but.... with your run-in demands it's now going to extend the wait by more than Six Months!. Will you still prefer the pre-burned kit? "

What I had in mind was that Naim (rather than the dealer) would build kit and have a warehouse full of new kit burning-in, in readiness for you or me to place our order. No long waiting for us, Naim simply add the cost of electricity and lead-time/warehousing to the retail price !

Then just to be on the safe side, Naim deliver direct from warehouse to home via a specially fitted lorry running a 240v power supply to keep everything 'on song'. And meet your appointed dealer on your doorstep to do the initial installation.

Dealer comes back one week later to make sure everything is perfect

I'd prefer this to six months of worry whilst my 500 grows from less than a Nait5 to its full £10k POWER STATION

But equally Naim could have cheaper ones in cold storage for the hairy chest brigade who like a good run(-in) for their money

Cheers

Don

congrats on the cds2 purchase, when i got mine 2 years ago to replace my cds1 from cold the machine was in a different class to the cds1. gone was that mid-range confusion and slightly shouty nature of the cds1, replaced by a wonderful see through insight of the music. the difference was not small.

from new my cds2 took about 3 - 4 montsh before the performance was consistent.

when you are going to do the decent thing and buy an 01 tuner, i am still blown away by mine (and i've had it for six years.

cheers

dev b (on the wheels of steel)

You got me thinking now...

Maybe something went Pssssffffffttt in my CDS2 - I mean it is only 9 months old yes?

Hmmm... maybe it was my 135's - or perhaps possibly my 52/Supercap - 2 years and a bit old? - nah.... couldn't have been... surely?

Guess I think I'll stick with the fact that my PXOs - 2 weeks old now - have finally started to sing.

I am enjoying this experience!

Ciao for now

P.

(BTW Ken - nothing SMELLS quite as nice as the burn in on a CDS2)

Hi Ken

I agree with Dev that generally you can tell the superiority of better equipment even when it is cold.

Occasionally there will be exceptions, but I find the lack of warm up is normally more a masking of the true ultimate quality, rather than actually sounding inferior. Clearly if you are comparing "equal" products the issue is very significant.

I am expecting my new XPS shortly and I can't wait, but a good example of burn in improvement was the XPS I borrowed for a home dem which had just arrived at my dealer Phonography in Ringwood. I took it home for a bank holiday weekend (thanks Phil) and the shop was closed on the Tuesday as well.

From the very first CD I played the quality was clear but by the Tuesday evening (actually quite late Wednesday morning) the further improvement was remarkable - and no doubt more to come.

At no time did I doubt the fundemental benefit of the XPS, and at no time did I question the overall quality of the system - why should I, it is a pretty good system and I had just added a better product.

The reverse is also true - if a lesser product is cold, it is has no chance to impress - a CDI straight out of a car boot was nothing in comparison to a warmed up CDX (There's an opening for CDI lovers).

To go off topic Ken,

Why was your TT at Infidelity for (what seems)so long?

Are you looking forward more to the CDS2 or the return of the TT with new cartridge?

What discs are you planning to spin first on both sources?

Chris

chris, i basically agree with

Occasionally there will be exceptions, but I find the lack of warm up is normally more a masking of the true ultimate quality, rather than actually sounding inferior.

there have been a number of queries on this forum where folk were complaining about a piece of kit not sounding OK. i just wondered whether in those instances we could pin down something that points to runin/warmup as the issue. i have often thought that if the kit sounds musical its OK, although it may be edgy and restrained, but boy, this may not be specific enough. i guess we just assume that if new kit doesnt live up to expectations, its a warmup issue, and advise patience - i.e. just leave the kit playing music.

thanks for your thoughts on this chris.

Why was your TT at Infidelity for (what seems)so long?

we were waiting for the xx2 cartridge to be available -- apparently at the time i expressed interest, i believe there was only one demo cartridge doing the rounds -- so we were basically in a queue. i had also sent my prefix to naim for service -- it could be simon was waiting for this to complete before arranging to have xx2 available. as it happens, the prefix and xx2 arrived more or less at the same time, so all worked well. i have to say that although initially the fact that i didnt have the lp12 didnt bother me, as weeks rolled by, i was beginning to get just a little bit edgy.

Are you looking forward more to the CDS2 or the return of the TT with new cartridge?

interesting question. in truth, i am looking fwd to both especially to compare an lp12 in tip top condition with, arguably, the best that cd has to offer. the xx2 did sound fantastic at infidelity. i have been considering getting rid of my lp12 -- it will be interesting to see whether this thought re-surfaces with my lp12 at its best...

What discs are you planning to spin first on both sources?

good question again! i will probably initially focus on the cdsii, if only to get it run in as soon as possible. i really dont know which album i will play, but i will probably leave art blakey in on auto repeat -- if i am in the room, i will probably change this to mendelsohn's "songs without words" -- not really sure yet.

on vinyl, this will be easy. i will first all check all is OK by playing the records i played at infidelity: sonny rollins, joe cocker, etc. then i will settle down to some serious going thru quite a lot of my blue note 180g albums when the cdsii is ready for a head to head the lp12.

chris, what do you suggest?

interesting times ahead...

enjoy

ken

[This message was edited by ken c on WEDNESDAY 13 June 2001 at 10:59.]

perhaps those adverts on loot should read "much used, therefore fully run/in warmed up" rather than the rather more common, but hard to believe "mint, little used"

enjoy

ken

dev b asks:

quote:

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when you are going to do the decent thing and buy an 01 tuner, i am still blown away by mine (and i've had it for six years).

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i have no plans to upgrade my nat02 to nat01, says he politically. no, in truth the thought never entered my mind.

fortunately, i am so broke after the recent run of upgrades that it will be quite a while before i contemplate any major upgrades. again, famous last words...

is the nat01 much better than nat02, or it is imply a matter of putting my nat02 on a mana all on its own and get more than the equivalent of this box upgrade?

enjoy

ken

Mind started to wander today!

If Naim kit takes soooooo long to warm up.....
Then after a few years needs to be recapped just to keep it up to spec......
Are we heading towards a shorter working life ?....

Cheers

Don

interesting. i believe the run-in/warmup time is very short compared with the optimum working life of the kit. this means there is probably a region where performance plateaus, all things being equal.

yeah, it would be really annoying if as soon as your amp fully warms up, its time to recap!!!

enjoy

ken

When Rico (above) says six months to run in a NAP500 I think we're headed in the direction you fear ie zero time between run-in and re-cap.

Also hope the mains electricity never goes 'phutt' otherwise the subsequent warm up period could put us into the hifi equivalent of 'negative equity'

If I stage my CDS1 to CDS2 up-grade using the transport trade-in route, then upgrade the CDPS to an XPS, do you think the 'cold' XPS will sound as good as a 4 year old never-been-swithed-of CDPS?

Cheers

Don

don a: i think even with a 500, i believe you are still guaranteed a long optimal plateau, but i can see what you mean. its comforting that 6 mnths within a recap cycle of 10 years is something like 5%, so you have 95% optimal period to enjoy.

i really do not agree that when you power cycle, the process starts again. i believe that run in and warm up are quite different processes. can someone who knows please jump in? naim audio? in that case, the affects of power down shouldnt really take that long to wear off -- no more than 1 day i would say.

If I stage my CDS1 to CDS2 up-grade using the transport trade-in route, then upgrade the CDPS to an XPS, do you think the 'cold' XPS will sound as good as a 4 year old never-been-swithed-of CDPS?

dunno i am afraid. i suspect not, but i think the cdsii/xps combination will very quickly dominate the cdps after a short while. are you thinking of doing this?? i am sure paul @ grahams can help you with this one.

i cant wait for my cdsii. only one week to go now, so i am told... hopefully this time, all will go well. been jinxed lately...

enjoy

ken