should a 72/180 sound better than a nait5?

I guess - just a guess, that even the 32.5 90/2 sounds much better than a Nait5.

Arye

Actually, I'm not surprised at your result and I don't necessarily think you are crazy. Here's why: In my experience the 72 *does* sound rolled off in the upper treble, expecially as compared to the preamp circuitry as evolved and deployed in the new series. Though I have not compared a 72 to a Nait 5, I have (and use) a 72 and have heard enough other equipment that clearly shows the tendency of the 72 to lose detail. Yes, the 72 has other "strengths" in comparison to other (typically older, contemporary) gear. But the upper frequencies are not noted for sparkling transparency. As far as the expected benefits accruing from the increased power of the 180 over the comparitively weaker power amp of the nait 5--well, that may be a non-issue under most listening circumstances where you (and most folks) are typically listening to only about a watt or two or sometimes even less.

Don't know where you are, finance-wise. I'd be tempted to seek out a 112 to replace the 72. (there are actually many options, such as hicap to supplement 72, used 82, etc.) You'll probably receive recommendations here to upgrade your source, but IMHO you've accurately perceived the character of the 72. Whether it troubles you enough for it to be a priority to change it is a different matter. I've lived with my 72 for about 12 years.

Markus
------

Phill, I'd largely agree with Markus. When the 72 was designed the fashion at the time was focussed on midband. These days theres a strong emphasis on the frequency extremes, subs, supertweeters etc. I enjoy the 72 and use one with a Hi-Cap. It worked very well with my SBLs. My current speakers are not as forward in the treble though and a 102 would probably be a better match. This is an issue of balance and I think a 112/102/82 would be more in the direction you wish to go.

Noel.

Phil,

what happens when you connect up the Nait to the 180?

Might help isolate where the problem lies. Pre or power.

Just a thought.

Calum

How old is the 180?
Does it require a service?

Sell the Nait 5 and buy a 102.

Sean

I also vote for the 102, it's the perfect match for the 180.

Try and connect the 180 to the Nait5 and see if you like that. I used that combination (with a HiCap) for a while and really liked it. The 72 has never been to my likings...

Regards, Bas

To my ears, the 72 needs a hicap, except for the very best source material, otherwise the sound is harsh. Plenty of events - just not musical ones. The 72/hi, OTOH, is terrific.

The 42.5/62/92 and 102 probably sound smoother without a hicap, so I'd recommend a 2-pronged approach.

First, see if the 180 needs service. If it doesn't, then see what's available in the preamp & PSU market.

Of course, you may just be one of those poor souls who loves the new series and can't hear the good stuff that the olive series does....

Regards.

Phil

The hicap will definitely improve the sound of a 72.

The other point is the 180, Epos designed the ES14 will the 250 amp in mind

Phill,

I tried a secondhand 180 last year and found that it was not very enjoyable. The 110 I had sounded smooth and enjoyable by comparrison. The 72 you have (if serviced) should sound great. My advice is to try a different power amp say 140 if you don't want to upgrade to a Hicap (try to find a friendly dealer to lend you one).

I eventually went for a 62/Hicap/250 (black/chrome) all secondhand but recently serviced and the sound is very enjoyable (and significantly different to a Nait).

I have seen a few postings in the past that suggest that the 180 is quite aggressive sounding unlike the other Naim amps. All the other Naim power amps have some form of regulator ? (not sure of my facts here so please check this out).

There has been recent discussion re the 72 / 102 comparrison and a lot of users say the 102 is not a major step forward, just different.

PS you will already know this I am sure but the 72/180 will need to be left on for a whole week before they sound as they should. Also they need to be setup well apart from each other and isolated).

Hope this helps.

Regards

Chris

The definitive thread on the differences between the 72 and 102 is "The Great Debate: 102 versus 72".

To my mind, the general consensus seems to be that the 102 is better than the 72.

My hunch is that you are getting a lot more bass from your Epos 14 using the 180 compared to Nait5. I had the same problem when I upgraded from Exposures integrated to a 82/hicap/250 driving Epos14. Try moving the speakers out a little more from the back wall. That should do the trick.

Hi, for what it's worth, here is my 2 cents (or pence).

Basically I think with your 72/180 that you are hearing more of your cd player than you previously had. I know this ads a whole other set of variables, BUT, I would recomend borrowing a CD5 from your dealer for an evening and then see how the 72/180 does in comparison to the Nait.

Adam
Past Owner of Nait 3R and also 102/180

The 62 and 72 are musically superior to the 102 by far as they eschew remote control technology and apply the KISS approach to hi-fi/musical reproduction.

If you want remote from Naim then the 82 is the minimum requirement, imho, if you want to better a 62 or a 72.

NB: I haven't heard a 72 but I have heard a 62 and it seemed to offer more musical info that just hit the spot than the 102 that I've heard, if only elsewhere and at another time.

I would think that the pre/power combo is now revealing weaknesses of your source component - I have checked your profile, and there is no mention of it there. If you are a CD user then the minimum requirement would be a used CDX, or at the very least a CD3.5 or 5 with a Hi-cap.



Regards,

Steve.

102 v 72/HiCap - heeeeeere we go again! (Or not).

To answer Arye: I haven't compared NAIT5 and 32.5/90 but I owned the latter for a decade and have heard a NAIT5 several times. Therefore (like Steven Toy, above, who has never compared 72/Hi with 102) I am prepared to venture an opinion in the hope that it is not entirely worthless: I think I'd prefer a NAIT5 (+ Stageline) to a 32.5/90!

Re 72/HiCap v 102: if you didn't already have a 72 I would recommend a 102. In your case I recommend a HiCap. The result will be musical performance close to that of a 102 but with a mostly cleaner sound.

If that doesn't work (and if there's nothing wrong with your system) then perhaps your preference for the new range over the old is even greater than mine. If so, you could keep the HiCap and swap your pre/power for a new range pre amp or power amp. [Assuming the NAIT5 can be use as a pre or power amp, which I think it can].

JeremyD,

This is interesting. As the cost of 32.5/Hi/90/2 is almost the same as the cost of Nait5, I'm going to ask Ilan to compare a Nait5 to my amplification.

Arye

Thanks everyone for your comments and advice.

Steven I have updated my profile with my system details (I did list it in my first post at the top of the page).

I did use the Nait5 as the pre-amp with the 180 before I got the 72. That produced quite a different sound again, but not one which I was happy with which was why I bought the 72 in the hope that it was the Nait5 that wasn't good enough for the 180. Its a bit strange, because when comparing the 180 to the naits power-amp (using the nait as pre) the 180 sounded shouty and unatural. However with the 72 as pre, the shoutyness isn't the problem, but it has other problems of its own as described above. I'd say that the muddyness and muffled sound has come with the 72 as these wern't present with the nait as pre, so I'd be surprised if the problem is that the 180 needs servicing as Sean and James suggested (although a service probably wouldn't go a miss - its a 97 model).

It would seem then that if I had a better pre-amp or maybe a Hi-cap then I might be able to get the benefits of both the nait and the 72(?). I am already using a home made power supply for the 72 though, I know that probably sounds dodgy but it was made by my local Naim dealer, who says that its basically a flatcap but with slightly inferior components. It does sound better using this than the 180s power supply.

To my ears, the most obvious impact of the hicap is to clean up the bass, even compared to the FC.

The 'consensus' in the 72/102 debate is in the eye of the beholder.. There are instead 2 camps, each holding the opinion that is the polar opposite of the other.

If one has to choose between a 72 and 102, s/he must listen and make the better choice for him/her, or make the choice and hope it works out.

Phil - 72 camp

I think the older range let more treble through, which can sound a bit nasty with CD players.
Certainly putting a Hi-Cap on the preamp would help tighten things up and give some separation.
However it could be that your CD player is being exposed.

Paul Rowlands