The Benefits of studying Bach

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Carney:
Hewitt is successful, but so is Lang Lang! I say no more on that one!

Btw, I've just put the Richter WTC on... The b-flat from Book I is sublime. Played in a very simple, yet sensitive way; they all seem to be played in a rather 'yearning' way.

You are not the only one to admire Richter on this forum. It is on my list.

Please explain the exact nature of the causal relationship between Hewitt's WTC and Lang Lang?
I don't see the connection. Explain it to me :-)

You mentioned that Hewitt is successful... She commands a good fee, a full concert hall, and her CDs sell well.

Sadly, buy those terms, Lang Lang is also a success.

As much as I dislike the Hewitt, I'd rather have it on repeat for the rest of my life than endure any more Lang Lang!

It depends on how we measure success...

All I said was were I a performer, the successful would get at least some of my attention. Not the ultimate factor, but a factor none the less.

One of the most striking things about Crisera was the wealth of information which he gleaned from other musicians, and all of it positive. I never heard a negative example, even once.

It was quite refreshing.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Carney:

In Harpsichord playing, articulation is everything. Each note needs a lot more care and attention than required on a piano; a harpsichordist alters the length of certain notes to shape a phrase/motif - this requires a huge amount of detailed practice and the ability to listen very carefully. As far as dynamics are concerned, most Harpsichords can double their registration. This gives in increase in volume, and also a substantial variation in timbre.

I could go into more detail, but it would be wasted. To summarise, the Harpsichord can be more versatile than a modern piano.

I think the harpsichord is a fine instrument, and one which I enjoy. However, to say "Each note [on harpsichord] needs a lot more care and attention than required on a piano" is simply incorrect ... it may well require the same amount of care and attention, but "a lot more" than on piano? No.

I have no doubt that, as you say, "articulation is everything" on the harpsichord, but where did you get the idea that the same is somehow not also true for the piano? I assume you play both instruments, but if you think that articulation is less crucial on piano than on harpsichord, I'd seriously urge a reinvestigation.

You say that "a harpsichordist alters the length of certain notes to shape a phrase/motif - this requires a huge amount of detailed practice and the ability to listen very carefully" ... yes, it does, but certainly no less so on piano, on which note length is equally important.

As far as volume, yes, a harpsichordist can double the registration and increase the volume (as well as engage a mute setting to reduce volume and change timbre), but the resolution of volume (and of timbre, for that matter) on the piano is far finer than the very coarse volume gradations on harpsichord.

Finally, I'm at a loss to understand how the "harpsichord can be more versatile than a modern piano" ... more versatile in what way(s)? The indelibly anachronistic association of its sound is a horse which has long since left the barn; the piano offers a far broader dynamic and timbral palette which affords it greater transparency in regards to its versatility.

All best,
Fred

Hi Fred,

How much Harpsichord have you played?

I say more, because, when playing the harpsichord one has to be a LOT more careful. This is because the Harpsichord's keys are very light, and ultra sensitive. On a piano, if one gently brushes a note when playing a quick passage, we can assume that the note will not sound. However, even the slightest brush of a note on the Harpsichord will make it sound. Not good!

Articulation is very important on both instruments, of course. However, the piano is capable of other ways of expression - you are not tied down as much. One can add expression, colour, dynamics in a vaster quantity with the piano. Due to the nature of the piano, and being less sensitive to play (from the player's perspective!), pianists can get away with 'more'.

I agree with you regarding gradations of dynamics, BUT you should know that the type of music that harpsichords were designed to play did not require such fine grading of dynamics. It's not that they are inferior, just have a different intention.

By versatile, I was referring to the point in context. For the playing of Baroque music. The piano offers many 'alternatives', but the harpsichord was designed to play such music, and lends itself in terms of dynamic capability, timbre, and style of articulations (plucking vs. hammering) to the music of such composers as JSB.

Just as the modern Model D (or equiv.) is more versatile in Romantic music - an instrument designed around the music that was going to be played on it.

Although the piano is advanced interms of technology, it would be foolish to cast aside the Harpsichord as being inferior. It certainly isnt, just different.

If you are a pianist, try playing a harpsichord. The art is in the uttermost subtleties. I would not consider myself to be a Harpsichordist, but I've played them many times and appreciate their importance in the development of keyboard-based instruments.

After spending some time listening to Hewitt do the WTC, I would look to this :

Bach - Brandenburg Concertos /
Il Giardino armonico

Absolutely stunning performances recorded to perfection :-)

Yes, the Il Giardino armonico are fantastic!

Have you heard their Four Seasons? Remarkable!

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Carney:
Yes, the Il Giardino armonico are fantastic!

Have you heard their Four Seasons? Remarkable!

Yes, the only complaint I have is they don't record often enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Carney:
Yes, the Il Giardino armonico are fantastic!

I gave a listen to the 3rd Brandenburg, actually, a couple of listens.

People don't comment much on Bach's skills as an orchestrator, but the voicing in the strings is quite beautiful. As played by Il Giardino armonico, it is like a single instrument.

Last night I continued on and listened to the 4th and 5th Brandenburgs.

I have to modify my statements on harpsichord. Using a piano in the Brandenburgs would ruin them, only a harpsichord will do.

However, I do feel the situation is not the same for solo keyboard works. I have a personal preference for piano in solo works.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Carney:

... the type of music that harpsichords were designed to play did not require such fine grading of dynamics. It's not that they are inferior, just have a different intention.

In the brandenburgs, the entire orchestra engages in terraced dynamics. This is not a matter of choice. Playing period instruments, you can only get so loud, and someone else must chime in for things to get louder.

I do not think this is a matter of choice for the composer, as there was no alternative. But judging by the rapidity of adoption of the piano and other modern instruments of every sort with an enhanced dynamic potential, I surmise that terraced dynamics were tolerated rather than loved.

So to keep our oranges and apples in their respective crates, let's say terraced dynamics were tolerated of necessity, not embraced as an enhancement to the music.

Still, when it's done right, it can be effective.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

In the Brandenburgs, the entire orchestra engages in terraced dynamics. This is not a matter of choice. Playing period instruments, you can only get so loud, and someone else must chime in for things to get louder.

I do not think this is a matter of choice for the composer, as there was no alternative. But judging by the rapidity of adoption of the piano and other modern instruments of every sort with an enhanced dynamic potential, I surmise that terraced dynamics were tolerated rather than loved.

So to keep our oranges and apples in their respective crates, let's say terraced dynamics were tolerated of necessity, not embraced as an enhancement to the music.

Still, when it's done right, it can be effective.

Dear Mike,

Your conclusions are so those of a man not wishing to accept the idea that Bach is fundamentally not a composer of classical music rather than baroque music.

The terraced dynamic of the orchestra is a stylised convention of the period, which applied just as much to the work of the chorus as the orchestra ... It the style wit6hin which the musicis conceived at the most fundamental level. It would not have occurred to musicians and choristers to play or sing in any other way. The point was to make plain the balance in what is frequently part writing of immense complexity! The dynamics as such are managed by altering the instrumental combinations [such as the contrast between the Tutti and the Concertino or in other events the Coninuo] and so on. You mention earlier that Bach was a master of orchestration [to use your word, used in comment on the Third Brandenburg Concerto], and yet this aspect almost always pases without comment as the real genius will be seen in the notes themselves rather than the orchestration. Praising orchestration has always struck me as imilar as praising a painter for buying the best paint, rather than considering the quality of inspiration that he brings to the resulting picture. To praise craft as art is to diminish the importance of either. Craft is crucial but a sine qua non.

When one has a noisy empty vessel like Richard Strauss, of course all there is to praise is the orchestration so that is what people comment on ...

So with baroque music, to be stylish, then really there is no choice but to use terraced dynamics. Interestingly it is exactly this point which make me prefer the harpsichord to the piano in every case, solo or concertante of Bach's music. Bach neither anticpated nor welcomed this new potential dynamic nuancing which the piano might have brought if he had adopted it. Bach knew of the forte piano and as you once pointed out he almost certainly supervised the sale of one to ... somone else!

Thus we may assume that though he made constructive criticism of the intrument at the time he did not see it as being compelling to either adopt it or adapt his music for it. When we get to his sons we see concertos for both instruments, and we see the style of composing move from the baroque to the galante, and onto the classical. In Haydn we find a composer who wrote sublime music for both instruments, and a study of the keyboard sonatas that he composed will soon show Haydn's complete grasp of difference between the fortepiano and harpsichord.

As for the harpsichord rapidly being supplanted by the up and coming piano this is a significant gloss on the truth.

The harpsichord itself is not a loud instrument capable of filling a more than medium sixed hall, and the music rooms where concerts were given in the eighteenth century were smaller than today but certainly the tendency was for new halls to be larger than older ones. But the harpsichord did not disappear overnight once the piano came along, but continued to be made for a good time after Bach's death. I will suggest you read about the Shudi Broadwood harpsichords, which were in production well into the fourth quarter of the eighteenth century. The same company would make pianos used by Beethoven and Liszt ... Shudi ...

I think you damn something stylish and inherent in the music by suggesting that terraced dynamics are okay when done well. They are inherent to the music which is distorted away from the composer's intentions when played without them!

ATB from George

George, first off I forgive you for invoking the name of RS as an example of crass music that is well orchestrated, even though that means you have called him out and he will be lurking for me when I least expect it.

Of course terraced dynamics are a fundamental part of music in the baroque. How could it be otherwise?

Things were were they were, available instrumentation included.

Still, there is no denying that modern instruments are capable of a far wider and more nuanced dynamic that anything available in Bach's time.

For my part, I love period instrument groups for the color and variety of shading, other than the dynamic, and for the astounding rhythm baroque music exhibits when played well, but could no more listen to a lone harpsichord for 30 minutes than I could sprout wings and fly.

I never forget I am a creature of 2009 listening to 18th century music.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
George, ...

Of course terraced dynamics are a fundamental part of music in the baroque. How could it be otherwise?

Things were where they were, available instrumentation included.

Still, there is no denying that modern instruments are capable of a far wider and more nuanced dynamic that anything available in Bach's time.

For my part, I love period instrument groups for the color and variety of shading, other than the dynamic, and for the astounding rhythm baroque music exhibits when played well, but could no more listen to a lone harpsichord for 30 minutes than I could sprout wings and fly.

I never forget I am a creature of 2009 listening to 18th century music.

Dear Mike,

You are a creature of 2009 and so I hope anm I!

When you come across the right solo harpsichord performances and cleanse the mind of the nineteenth and twentieth century expectations that the piano repertoire from these times bring, then I promise you will appreciate the special and intensely satisfying connection to Bach keyboard works that can happen via a performance on the harpsichord without the dynamic sophistication - so alien to the music - that the piano brings, and which pianist cannot usually refrain from interjecting between the intended written music and thir perfomance for the musical public. It is sugared. The pill can be taken whole and is far better for you than either sugar or a sugar-coated [piano] version, but it is not necessarily easy at the start or actually possible for everyone, if they are wedded to later styles of msic in terms of attempting to project backwards the potential "improvements" that later styles and instruments might be thought to bring to older music.

Would you appreciate it if some young buck told you how great Beethoven's Emperor concerto sounded when played on a Moog Synth, even it is no doubt every bit as feasible as playing the Goldbergs on a Piano.

The anachronism is no less blatant, and in my opinion no less inappropriate after a while.

The piano often provides a splendid entry to Bach's keyboard works, but it is, in my view, nothing more than the lever which operates the door. Once the door is open then the old instruments Bach had in mind still flower the more majestically.

Bach's music is the matter in hand that is more complete [even in print] than any other, and needs nothing more than great musicianship with the correct resources [ie. mainly correct period instruments and accute sense of the style, not all of which may be gleened from accademic studies] and then the most direct and ucluttered connection will be made with Bach's genius.

I never thought I would get to the point where I would think this, and yet it was something I was told about thirty years ago. Now I know what this person was on about. And you still have time to cut through the smoothing over, dressing up in false sophistication, and sugaring of the pil brought by the piano to get to the real Bach behind it all!

______

My experiences playing the bass in baroque set-up are just as Dan suggests. Much greater skill is required to keep things going well, but the lucidity of the result is worth the trouble, especially when the cause of the trouble is Bach!

ATB from George

OK George, going on your word alone, I am going to play the Walcha WTC for the rest of the week.
I am going to give it some time to soak in :-)

That's the best I can do :-)

See the power your recommendations have? It's only because it usually yields satisfying results.

And I want to get to the roots of this music as much as you.

Just concentrate on Book One, P&Fs 1 to 12, but not more than twice in any day!

Sit down and shut your eyes [if more comfortable lye down on the floor!] I do], and try to shut out every other sensory stimulus. It is amazing! A straight connection!

Best of luck from George

As I write, I am limbering up my ears with the first three Brandenburg Concertos. The Walcha lay on the sideboard, ready for duty immediately after dinner clean-up.

In these Brandenburg Concertos,the harpsichord gives duty as a continuo, and does a stunning job because it brings such a unique voice into the mix, and players develop a deadly accuracy rhythmically.

Tonight I'll give her a listen unreserved.

Excitement :-)

I had no idea of the historical evolution of the civilized world's music and had not realized that all modern music owes everything to Bach."
- Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov

"Study Bach: there you will find everything."
- Johannes Brahms

quote:

For months, I fixed my attention on the Well Tempered Clavier and the St. Matthew's Passion, but now I am turning to the Beethoven Symphonies and late piano sonatas again.

Has the World's media been informed? When you start to pontificate on Bach I am reminded of Albert Einstein another genius who said:

"I have this to say about Bachs works; listen, play, love, revere - and keep your trap shut"
- Albert Einstein

quote:

Originally posted by Sniper:

Has the World's media been informed? When you start to pontificate on Bach I am reminded of Albert Einstein another genius who said:

"I have this to say about Bachs works; listen, play, love, revere - and keep your trap shut"
- Albert Einstein

Many music lovers write about their listening habits, especially here in the music room.

If you don't like that, don't read my posts.

I think you should investigate a laxative to soothe your grumpy persona.

I'm curious, what do you think the forum is for?

Having read much of what you have written over the last month or so I assumed the forum existed so you and GFFJ could engage in a barely concealed passive-aggresive dual for the position of Champion Resident Forum Classical Music Expert. You do not so much write about your 'listening habits' as lecture. Personally I find your pomposity amusing - keep it up.

Last night I gave a listen to the Walcha/WTC on harpsichord, in a very relaxed and receptive state of mind, and in a darkened room.

The voicing of the harpsichord is certainly clear, exposing everything, and his tempi just sound perfect. The sound seems hypnotic, drained of all color. It was a real effort to stay awake. That never happens with the Hewitt.

I will make another attempt tonight. Perhaps it's just a lack of familiarity with the appreciation of harpsichord.

The effort is already bearing some fruit, as I noticed a number of musical ideas that previously escaped my attention. That may be due to the increased attention, or perhaps the clarity of voicing the harpsichord affords.

Whoosh!!

quote:

Originally posted by Sniper:
Having read much of what you have written over the last month or so I assumed the forum existed so you and GFFJ could engage in a barely concealed passive-aggresive dual for the position of Champion Resident Forum Classical Music Expert.

I might be wrong but I think you're miles away of the truth here. Reading posts by people as passionate as George and Mike are led me to investigate into classical music again and I quite enjoy it.

pd