The Benefits of studying Bach

quote:

Originally posted by BigH47:
I don't think sniper is saying the information isn't valid just the presentation?

Please take this off into some other thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Sniper:
Having read much of what you have written over the last month or so I assumed the forum existed so you and GFFJ could engage in a barely concealed passive-aggresive dual for the position of Champion Resident Forum Classical Music Expert.

Dear Sniper,

I could not disagree more.

Mike and I certainly enjoy some of the same music though his taste is much more catholic than mine. I certainly claim no expertese in anything, but I do have passion, a curious mind, and the ability to listen and read. I am equipped to add to a reasonable education in matters musical, but I really don't think expert is the word so much as enthusiast.

To be fair, Mike is also exactly that - an enthusiast! The truth is that Mike posts about music, about listening to it, about other topics round it, and at least three quaters of his posts are about things I cannot usefully add anything to and don't. In other areas, I think it is interesting to share the debate, where my opinion may be different to Mike's, and may possibly have as much validity as his.

I don't think questing and debating amounts to a competition, and it seems to me to be a reasonable activity in the circumstances ...

I may not agree with Mike on every point, but will defend his wish to express himself as he likes as he is not personally abusive, and he is truly passionate about what he writes.

On the other hand refering to his posts as "pontification" - or was it calling his posting "pontificating" - seems to me to cross the line into personal abuse, and I think it demeans you more than hurting Mike.

For a member with 34 posts you seem to want to stand very tall, and tell others what to do. To get away with that - getting others to do what otherwise they might not - requires that you first gain their respect. I doubt you are going the right way about it ...

Best wishes from George

Dear Mike,

I think you may already have found something from it if you spotted new musical details. All I say is don't overdo it. Gently as she goes, now and again, and the harpsichord bug will seep into your system as if you were born with it!

Best wishes from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Mike,

Gently as she goes, now and again, and the harpsichord bug will seep into your system as if you were born with it!

Best wishes from George

Adding a whole instrument to what I love in music is quite a prize, so I won't be walking away from this.

Mike, ODS & GFFJ,

BigH got it - it is not the information (which is often interesting)its the presentation. Do what you want about that Mike. Contrary to the view of GFFJ I have never told anyone what to do here. Let the competition continue if it produces well thought out information, as I said I find the pomposity amusing.

Sniper: I didn't get you right indeed. I see your point now!

quote:

Originally posted by Sniper:
Mike, ODS & GFFJ,

BigH got it - it is not the information (which is often interesting)its the presentation. Do what you want about that Mike. Contrary to the view of GFFJ I have never told anyone what to do here. Let the competition continue if it produces well thought out information, as I said I find the pomposity amusing.

Sniper, you know what is pompous? Posting a few quotes by famous people and a link or two without any commentary of your own. It's real puffery to throw around Einstein and Casals when you have no idea of your own to put into the mix.

I think my presentation is just fine. If you don't think so, don't read my posts. Better yet, post some material of your own - and I don't mean quotes and links.

Nothing is more contemptable than an empty suit.

So spend some time having a thought of your own, and stop worrying about what others post.

There is no competition with George. We are both exploring music, from different directions. We are friends. If you don't know enough to participate but want to, learn something more about music instead of attacking fellow posters.

A final note. Labeling me pompous is offensive. Notice I haven't applied a label to you, although there are many unsavory possibilities.

I provided information for others to follow up if they wanted to - there is information on those links to aid those who are interested to make comparisons between performers and form their own opinions instead of listening to your insufferable pomposity. I have provided a service you have provided comical self absorbed posturing. Keep it coming - you gave us all a good laugh at work today.

Sniper, you are an asshole. Time to put you on the ignore list.

It's interesting that I went from amusing to insufferable just by calling you out on being an empty suit without musical knowledge or ideas.

WOW PEEPS!

Good job there's a large ocean between you two eh?

QED

What about keep on talking about Bach here?

Seconded with pleasure.

ODS & Mongo, how goes Bach for you? What are you listening to?

I have been banging away at the Well Tempered Clavier for months now. My ultimate goal is to remember the themes of each prelude and fugue so I recognize them instantly.

I'm hoping if I ingrain it in my memory, more will be obtained from each listening, and it will bring me closer to the music.

One of the best time honored ways to love music is having some come into your head so you can hum it.

I'm off to the shop in ten minutes where i hope to find some fine version of the violin concertos.

Hilary hahn has been recommended so if she's there i'll give her a shot i think.

Out of curousity Mongo, what sent you to the violin concertos first?

I don't know these, so will be interested in what you think.

Ah. Well simply because i enjoyed the Brandenburgs so much and i'm used to strings more than any other classical instrument, so it makes sense to me to start with something at least recognisable and then progress as i become better aware of Bach's subtleties.

I'm also very much interested in the Harpsichord works as i found the little peice in the Brandenburgs entirely charming. But again it will be concertos rather than solo pieces,

Mike: I'm currently listening to Haydn actually I bought the Well Tempered Clavier by Angela Hewitt after reading much about it here, which picked my curiousity. Unfortunately, I can't say I was mightily impressed, maybe I'm just too much of a beginer when it comes to Bach. Which is why I enjoy this thread by the way..!

quote:

Originally posted by {OdS}:
I bought the Well Tempered Clavier by Angela Hewitt after reading much about it here, which picked my curiousity. Unfortunately, I can't say I was mightily impressed,

If you've been following the thread, you know she is not universally admired, although she is my favorite Bach artist, and others feel as I do (Florestan).

I think her 2009 Well Tempered Clavier is the best Bach piano performance I have heard, and the recording is stunning, sounding like a real Fazioli.

I'd like to recommend a "trick" to get into the Well Tempered Clavier. For a few listens, listen to the Book 1 preludes, skipping over the fugues, and don't do more than 5 or 6 preludes at a time.

The fugues are denser and not as playful as the preludes, so the preludes give a gentler entry point to the music.

I think this technique is necessary (for me at least) because Bach can hypnotize you. If I try to plow through a whole cd of it, I end up with glazed eyes and shallow breathing.

The Brandenburgs don't require this treatment.

What Bach keyboard works do you know and love?

Mike: thank you for the trick! I know it can take time to enter the music sometimes and I look forward to see how my mind will change (for better or worse) in the incoming weeks. In all honnesty, I couldn't mention any keyboard work by heart. As I said, I'm very new to Bach and to classical music in general. I can try to tell you what embarassed me in the WTC though. I felt like there was too much dynamic changes (not sure those are the correct/best words to describe it), like she had decided to play louder or quieter just for the sake of it and not because the piece demands it. Hard to be really precise with my limited english, I hope you get what I'm trying to say!

[edit]

Regarding the above, I would add that some tempo changes sounded a bit "out of place" to my ears, preventing a feeling of overall smoothness and making the listen a bit difficult to me.

ODS, you put your finger on George's objections to the Hewitt WTC, too many dynamics and questions about tempo and rubato.

To be frank, it put me off at first because I was accustomed to Gould's Bach (George doesn't like these either).

But I listened a few more times, and on one listen it suddenly hit me. I fell in love with her phrasing.

If you want to go the whole nine yards, Hewitt has a DVD on Bach performance that I found quite illuminating.

Mike: I wouldn't be surprised if I started enjoying it in several weeks or months. This happened before and will happen again, for sure

I think I'm actually very sensitive to the interpretation. I'll never call a piece "good" or "not so good" other than by my own ears and taste, which are of course biased. Looking forward to see how things turn! Great to have a place like this forum at the start of a journey into classical music.



Christian

ODS, you are right about personal tastes and the forum. Geoff P introduced me to the Hewitt WTC right here. Perferences for various performances of the WTC are all across the board (about a dozen different ones I think).

Everyone defends their favorite like a family member.

You just don't know how it's going to strike you until you listen for yourself.

That's part of the fun :-)

Question : How can you tell if a listener is biased? Well, if he's breathing he's biased, otherwise, not so much ...

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
How can you tell if a listener is biased? Well, if he's breathing he's biased, otherwise, not so much ...

Yes, that's what I meant, more or less! Regarding the WTC though, I had "expectations" or "thoughts" based on what I had read here. Therefore, I was biased the first time I listened to it, it was quite a different approach than listening to something I hadn't expected to listen to, if that makes sense!

I am at an impasse' with the Walcha WTC. Just can't listen to it any more right now. So I'm going to let it sit till it cools down.

Meanwhile, I am in a rut. I need a break from Bach, Beethoven, Stravinsky, Brahms. It's a bit rich.

A couple of weeks ago I started rummaging through the Jazz stacks. It all sounds tired and too familiar. I injected 12 new discs into the jazz collection, and none of them satisfied.

New Orleans music is still fresh and inviting, but is naturally a bit shallow. This is the truly beautiful woman of music, New Orleans music that is :-)

So I went down to the office and picked some LPs out of the stacks. Every one of my choices was inspired by what I have learned here in the Music Room :

Haydn Symphonies 99-104 Jochum,LPO
Haydn "The Creation" Dorati,RPO Lucia Popp
Haydn Piano Sonatas (Complete) John McCabe

Mozart Piano Sonatas (Complete) Lili Kraus

Beethoven String Quartets, Op. 18, Nos 1-6 The julliard Quartet

I threw the Beethoven in, because it's more music I haven't been able to get next to. Haven't heard it ever, and will not try to study it. It's here just for a listen.

I knew there was a reason I kept those records ...