Abide with me, Fast falls the eventide.

quote:

Spirituality, or appreciation of the need for husbandry of precious finite resources for the future generations of Humanity

Can't see any connection whatsoever between these two subjects.

Happy New Year, and good luck with the Big Sky Fairy.

Atheist and proud of it.

Why all those capitals George?

I also value the hymn for the line Change and decay in all around I see, a sentiment of which I am often reminded when being badgered on the desirability / inevitability of Change by some spotty young management consultant type.

quote:

Can't see any connection whatsoever between these two subjects.

The connection is the idea that something might be sacred and hence worthy of preservation in its own right - irrespective of whether they serve our individual or collective interests. The linking concept is absolute value, as opposed to the modern idea that everything has its price (exchange value). The fact that you do not share this sensibility does not mean it is without validity.

Thanks for me not having to explain that one Nigel [droodzilla].

Kevin, the excess of capitals may be layed at the door of a small surfeit of beer. Note the time of posting!

Dear Mike, it is perhaps a truism, but it has been known for pride to come before a fall!

ATB from George

quote:

Dear Mike, it is perhaps a truism, but it has been known for pride to come before a fall!

Bollocks.

quote:

Originally posted by droodzilla:

quote:

Can't see any connection whatsoever between these two subjects.

The connection is the idea that something might be sacred and hence worthy of preservation in its own right - irrespective of whether they serve our individual or collective interests. The linking concept is absolute value, as opposed to the modern idea that everything has its price (exchange value). The fact that you do not share this sensibility does not mean it is without validity.

The concept of some things having absolute value may well lie at the root of any sane attempt to to preserve our species and as many others as possible. Undeniable.

To link it to the word sacred is not only unnecessary but counter productive. It inspires irritation in non believers and consequently mistrust in those who offer the notion as the only sane option that it is.

quote:

The concept of some things having absolute value may well lie at the root of any sane attempt to to preserve our species and as many others as possible. Undeniable.

To link it to the word sacred is not only unnecessary but counter productive. It inspires irritation in non believers and consequently mistrust in those who offer the notion as the only sane option that it is.

To regard the Creation as being sacred, and to aim to husband it for future generations is not proposed as the only sane way forward as clearly there is a secular rational that might [but almost never actually does] arrive at a similar answer to the problem of sustainability and the future security of the environment of the Earth.

If [some] secularists are so sensitive to the idea the possibility that theists got to the same sane rational set of actions by a different route of thinking and logic as to be upset the possibility of an alternative way of arriving at the same conclusion then this is a shame. It is up to us all, theists and secularists alike to able to share aims and aspirations with regard to the future of the world and humankind. You may not regard the Earth as being a sacred creation. I do. Please simply realise that I am guided by something bigger than me, whereas your position is self-realised. That I have drawn strength from something more significant than myself in this issue does not make my resulting actions any less proper as compared to a secularist arriving at the same position.

ATB from George

quote:

The concept of some things having absolute value may well lie at the root of any sane attempt to to preserve our species and as many others as possible. Undeniable.

To link it to the word sacred is not only unnecessary but counter productive. It inspires irritation in non believers and consequently mistrust in those who offer the notion as the only sane option that it is.

To be honest I usually try to avoid using heavily loaded words like "sacred" in discussions like this. Likewise, I simply can't bring myself tu use the G word - it simply carries too much baggage and (for me, at least) gets in the way of the underlying issues. In a nutshell, I am sympathetic to religion, but often exasperated by the way it is articulated. For me, behind all the "fairy tales", the major religions share a belief in absolute value (or, maybe, absolute reality), and the moral importance of allowing this concept into our lives - apologies for the vaguenes, but these things are inherently difficult to put into words, so I think I'll stop trying for now.

Actually, I was surprised by your reply, as the idea of absolute value is deeply, deeply unfashiionable in an age where markets are deemed to be the sole arbiter of what things are worth. It's also an idea that is often disparaged by the same people who poo-poo faith, and on very similar grounds (that it is incoherent or irrational). The irony is that they are right - the idea of absolute value *is* irrational in the sense that it involves a refusal to compare one thing with another and form a preference (based on seeing both in terms of a common denominator). If this all sounds too abstract, think about the difference between choosing between two chocolate bars, and choosing between two of your own children (assume the one not chosen will be put to death).

I don't think religions are theories - not even theories about a special supernatural realm (because such a realm does not exist, and even if it did, anything true we could say about it would simply become part of our scientific understanding). But maybe they can be said to be true in the same (or similar) way that love can be true, or a poem rings true. Maybe.

Sorry for the ramble.

Dear Nigel,

I don't have a problem with the idea of something being sacred, or even using the word where it is the sincerely meant word in the context. There are many sacred things. The Balinese regard musical instruments as sacred for example.

My point in this thread is that the secularists do not have a monopoly on the rational - not everything secularists say about theists is rational!

I wish we could all work towards the common good even where this is against our own immediate interests. I find that a religious faith can often allow me to focus more easily outside my own immediate interest by the thought channels it brings about with its message - in, for example, personal comfort or desire for this or that desirable consumer durable - and it guides me in the ways of making wiser personal decisions in every aspect of life. I look to the thought that having a faith and a firm grounding in the Christianity that I may be a better person than I might have been otherwise.

I do not look at the human failings of Churchmen so much as message itself, and moderate readings of it. In my view all the great religions bring the message of selflessness, and generosity of spirit. Not just to one's friends, but also to the unknown person and even the known enemy! Anyone can be kind to a friend, but Christianity at least suggests that we should be equally kind to all!

Any hi-jacking of religion for political or personal gain is an abuse of it, and if there were no religions then the people who have on times hi-jacked religion would be hi-jacking philosophy or science or whatever else. To blame religion for the acts of those who have hi-jacked and abused it is not sensible in my view.

It has its good points, this religion thing you know!

ATB from George

Hi George, I don't think I can disagree with any of that. My comment about the use of the word "sacred" or "God" was simply an expression of personal preference. I find some of the traditional language of religion unhelpful - especially in debates like this. Faith, a sense of the sacred, (or whatever) is a very personal thing and it is up to each individual who is so inclined to find his or her own way of grappling with it. The words we use to articulate how we choose to engage are less important than the underlying attitudes, commitments and practices - the old Buddhist warning not to confuse the finger pointing at the moon (our words and concepts) with the moon itself (reality, which eludes our conceptual grasp).

I agree that secularists do not have a monopoly on rationality. I'd go further and say that the possibility of rational inquiry presupposes things that cannot themselves be demonstrated rationally - but I'm not going to argue for that here. However, I think it's also important to acknowledge that there *is* something irrational about faith but that this is not a bad thing. Just as love (of other people, of music, etc) is irrational but our lives would be immeasurably poorer without it. So it seems to me.

Regards
Nigel

Nigel

I am confused by your use of the word "irrational" and its associated concepts.

Perhaps its just another example of the difficulty we all have in using words to describe difficult concepts.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Dudley:

quote:

Spirituality, or appreciation of the need for husbandry of precious finite resources for the future generations of Humanity

Can't see any connection whatsoever between these two subjects.

Happy New Year, and good luck with the Big Sky Fairy.

Atheist and proud of it.

Its pretty obvious to me that this is a subject close to George's heart.

To make such a snide, self-centered post is pretty poor, IMO. One opinion you should either have kept to yourself or raised, obliquely, elsewhere.

quote:

o make such a snide, self-centered post is pretty poor, IMO. One opinion you should either have kept to yourself or raised, obliquely, elsewhere.

Not to mention obtuse, since the connection is reasonably clear if you give it a moment's thought. One may disagree about the strength or significance of the connection, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Nigel

I am confused by your use of the word "irrational" and its associated concepts.

Perhaps its just another example of the difficulty we all have in using words to describe difficult concepts.

Cheers

Don

Hi Don, the simplest answer is that faith is irrational because it cannot be conclusively demonstrated, either empirically, or by deductive logic. It always involves the proverbial "leap of faith". There was something else I had in mind but I'm struggling to articulate it at the mo - as you say, it's hard to put this stuff into words sometimes.

I hope we can all work out that some irrational [or apparently irrational] acts can be good.

Discerning what is good - morally astute - is what marks the human out as a species, though it would be wrong to assign the monopoly of morality to humans. It seems that other primates share it, and among others so do dogs, at least in terms of reacting to the fairness or unfairness of given treatment!

Dear Mike [Lacey],

Thanks, and yes all these issues mentioned above are primary to me. On the other hand, I expected that I would draw out those with a secularist view, and I am not offended by them. The idea is to promote quiet reflection and thought, which is probably better than me trying to browbeat people! That is not my style in any case, but thanks for your kind post all the same.

ATB from George

My beliefs on faith and spirituality have been formed by my experiences of the people around me. Many in my family and among my friends are believers, who accept their faith unconditionally.

In times of crisis they have always risen to the challenge, and in times of joy, they have added an extra something special to the occasion. In day to day interactions, they always leave you in a good mood.

I attribute this to the love of life they carry in their hearts.

I can not bring myself to study or critique such a beautiful thing, but intend to enjoy it and revel in it at every opportunity.

Love thy neighbor.

Live and let live.

Fantastic stuff, mikeeschman! And for Mike D's benefit: Amen

Andrew Randle

Many people "rise to the challenge at times of crisis" and otherwise indulge in charitable acts, being nice to neighbours etc etc etc. without any interest in or affliction with, what you describe as "spirituality"...

Faith is not a necessary adjunct to moral behaviour.

Just thought I'd say it again as, as usual, the religious seem to have forgotten that this point has been made.

And you can shove your amen. Thankyou all the same.

I wasn't claiming that only "spiritual" have have good qualities. I was saying that the ones in my life have good qualities.

Studying history gave me a great deal of respect for first person, real life evidence, so I used the people who are in my life.

It's a personal testitmonial not meant to diminish anyone. My life would be devistated without the faithful who are in my life.

My own beliefs are in a state of flux. That being the case, I watch what happens in my own life very closely, and try not to reject anything out of hand, especially when it seems to be filled with pure goodness. I have made a special effort to keep a charitable attitude to the faithful, because I feel they deserve and appreciate it, and because good acts make an impression on me.

Your own life is the best source for decisions and attitudes spiritual.

At the age of 60, I am finding that a good number of life's issues don't respond to reason. For some things, using reason is like setting a screw with a hammer. It is on these occasions that I see the personal value in faith. That doesn't mean throw the hammer away. It means carry the hammer and the screwdriver, and use whichever one fits the situation.

Life is circumstance.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
My beliefs on faith and spirituality have been formed by my experiences of the people around me. Many in my family and among my friends are believers, who accept their faith unconditionally.

In times of crisis they have always risen to the challenge, and in times of joy, they have added an extra something special to the occasion. In day to day interactions, they always leave you in a good mood.

I attribute this to the love of life they carry in their hearts.

I can not bring myself to study or critique such a beautiful thing, but intend to enjoy it and revel in it at every opportunity.

Love thy neighbor.

Live and let live.

Praise be!!

Dear Siss,

How pleasant to read your words ...

Praise be what?

After reading such inspirational words I just couldn't help myself,

Sister Act xx

quote:

Originally posted by Sister E.:
After reading such inspirational words I just couldn't help myself,

Sister Act xx

That echo I hear is reverberation in an empty head and an empty heart.

You have my sympathy.