Abide with me, Fast falls the eventide.

I'm sure it's fuller than yours Mike.

quote:

Originally posted by Sister E.:
I'm sure it's fuller than yours Mike.

Whatever floats your boat.

How could you know?

Just a feeling

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Dudley:
And you can shove your amen. Thankyou all the same.

Mike Dudley, you are far too easy to wind up. The Bible talks about words as powerful things - and your sentiments reveal you are in no position to lecture us on what is moral or amoral.

Andrew Randle

Sister E, let me tell you something about my self, at least partially in the hope that you will do the same.

I am married to my first wife, and we celebrate our 36th anniversary on March 28th. We have two daughters in their 30s, one getting married March 20th, the other engaged. The four of us still love each other. The wedding will be here in New Orleans, with a party at the house her mother grew up in. There will be plenty food and booze and we have a piano player, and an R & B band. We just enjoy each other so much :-)

Now a little about music. Music is a tricky subject. You can come at it so many different ways, each of them valid and satisfying.

But no one person can take every way. A few? Maybe. But the whole banana? No way.

I have trained my ear to hear rhythm, pitch and harmony. That information is used to construct a shape for a phrase. That's basically the way I learned to hear. So that is the most fundamental way I hear everything.

Listening that way, I find that it is the same as if I had chosen to learn Spanish, and gone on to read novels.

Music is a language constructed using a few simple tools. What can be done with those tools is astounding.

What I am striving for is to hear it the way the author intended. I am 60. I need something to do all day pretty soon.

I have chosen to hear music as intended by the author. Can't do that for everyone.

My picks are :

Bach - never wears itself out. New every time.

Beethoven - blows your mind! A bit scary now and then. The music I have become addicted to.

Chopin, the first to step outside Beethoven's shadow, more or less in parallel to Berlioz, but working with completely different media.
This one's new, I'm learning as I go.

Debussy, who built a new stage to perform upon. Sure, others built new stages, even redefined what a stage is. But I choose this one, cause I can only do so much. Wagner may end up with a year to himself. I am playing 2 Wagner LPs this weekend if it kills me!!!

Stravinsky. Yummy. So much in so little time. One measure of Stravinsky could have you listening to eight or nine different things at the same time. Built out of melodies that are so perfect, you catch your breath.

After a year of this, adjustments may be made.

I can't enjoy string quartets right now. That must be fixed.

And Schubert and Mozart are virtually unknown to me.

But those are issues for another year.

Let's be friendly :-)

Mike,

Thank you for telling me about yourself. I'm very pleased to hear you have a loving family and that music means so much to you. I'm sure you are charming company.

I appreciate your taste in music. My views on music and how it should be approached are very different to yours. I feel engagement on the subject between us is probably not worth it as I'm not convinced you are particularly open to views other than your own.

Other differences between us are, I suspect, cultural, and some of your more "earnest" posts tend to bring out the side of me which wishes to provoke. I shall do my best to keep that side of me in check - in relation to your posts.

I hope you will come to appreciate the intimacy of chamber music(especially that of Schubert)as you have reached the age of 60.But as you say,Schubert and Mozart are for the future,

Sister E

quote:

Originally posted by Sister E.:
Mike,

Thank you for telling me about yourself. I'm very pleased to hear you have a loving family and that music means so much to you. I'm sure you are charming company.

I appreciate your taste in music. My views on music and how it should be approached are very different to yours. I feel engagement on the subject between us is probably not worth it as I'm not convinced you are particularly open to views other than your own.

Other differences between us are, I suspect, cultural, and some of your more "earnest" posts tend to bring out the side of me which wishes to provoke. I shall do my best to keep that side of me in check - in relation to your posts.

I hope you will come to appreciate the intimacy of chamber music(especially that of Schubert)as you have reached the age of 60.But as you say,Schubert and Mozart are for the future,

Sister E

Hi Sister E.

I know this is off topic but...

I am on a mission. I have very recently come to love and adore Bach's chamber music. By which i mean the Brandenburg's, the harpsichord concertos and the orchestral suites. Please laugh if i've got the catagories mixed up!

My mission is of course more music and as you seem to be fond of chamber music could you please recommend some to me ?

I was thinking of simpler stuff to begin?

Thank you, Paul.

Thanks Paul,

A few of my favourite chamber pieces which I feel are(relatively)accessible;

Schubert "Trout" Quintet, Schubert Piano Trios, the Mendelssohn Octet. The Schubert late quartets are glorious as is Beethoven's output(much less accessible)of which the late works are, to some, the very peak of the western classical tradition.

These are my views. Other here will feel differently and will give you their views and their superior expertise, especially in relation to Bach's great works,

Sister E

quote:

Originally posted by Sister E.:
Thanks Paul,

A few of my favourite chamber pieces which I feel are(relatively)accessible;

Schubert "Trout" Quintet, Schubert Piano Trios, the Mendelssohn Octet. The Schubert late quartets are glorious as is Beethoven's output(much less accessible)of which the late works are, to some, the very peak of the western classical tradition.

These are my views. Other here will feel differently and will give you their views and their superior expertise, especially in relation to Bach's great works,

Sister E

Thanks for the speedy reply.

I think i'll start with the 'Trout' quintet. I saw a copy last time i was in my fave record shop. If it's still there i'll get it tomorrow.

Also the later ones. Anything described as 'glorious' is worth a listen at least.

Regards, Paul.

The Trout Quintet is a wonderful, life enhancing piece ...

Consider the admirable performance with members of the VPO with Clifford curzon on Decca ...

Enjoy it!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Any hi-jacking of religion for political (or personal gain) is an abuse of it,

ATB from George

But isn't this precisely what you are doing George when you use 'religion' to justify your belief in the need for preservation of the world's resources, even to the extent of advocating measures to restrict population growth - something that is anathema to many religions!

Dear Svetty,

Very good point. So to answer the points your question raises.

Firstly the question of planning the size of families is in my view a question of personal choice. However it is known that when mothers are better educated the number of children each mother has tends to reduce, so that is as far as I would advocate any policy went in reality - better education. On the other hand I don't see any inconsistency with morality derived from religious values that makes considering the impact of ever growing population an issue for thought and personal action, even abstinence.

I don't say that the conservation of finite resources should be only be done because they are part of the sacred creation but because this conservation for the future and a sustainable use is actually a morally correct thing for the future of the world's human young. Of course part of my thought process on this is guided by my education in matters of religion and faith. On balance the pure secularists seem to be making quite a mess of it, placing capitalistic values before moral ones. If my faith has steered me away from that greed motivated course then I think I have made wiser decisions as a result.

I am not a brainwashed automaton, and in my view there is a difference between brain-washing with [so called] religion [which is an abomination in my view], and teaching a morality based in religious values which encourages questing and individual thought that never the less adheres to a bigger morality than the simple greed motive and law of the jungle that is more likely to follow a completely secularist upbringing. I would not however maintain that the adherence to a faith give the adherents a monopoly on good. Also I can see no reason why faith may not be compatible wth quite tough personal decisions as well - sometimes very tough indeed.

For my attitude on this you only need look at the post above about the value of being equally kind to friends, the unknown, and known enemies.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by Sister E.:
I feel engagement on the subject between us is probably not worth it as I'm not convinced you are particularly open to views other than your own.

Other differences between us are, I suspect, cultural, and some of your more "earnest" posts tend to bring out the side of me which wishes to provoke. I shall do my best to keep that side of me in check - in relation to your posts.

I hope you will come to appreciate the intimacy of chamber music(especially that of Schubert)as you have reached the age of 60.But as you say,Schubert and Mozart are for the future,

Sister E

Sister E, I am very interested to hear what you have to say about music, especially about music I don't know.

You have to remember I'm an old man who has been listening for over 40 years, and it takes some effort to change and to accept new things. It is a struggle to overcome my bias. But I am determined to increase my ability to enjoy music, especially music that is new to me.

If you follow my posts, I think you will see that I am changing.

George has brought Bach into my life in a way I wouldn't have thought possible. Geoff P introduced me to Angelia Hewitt. Dan Carney is broadening and deepening my appreciation of piano and Chopin in particular. Fred Simon is redefining my image of 20th century music. Florestan has moved me in directions I didn't know existed. There are dozens of other examples of people on the forum expanding my field of view.

Sometimes it makes me cranky, stretching my ears that way, but it's always enjoyable and exciting.

Please remember that when I post an agenda for listening, it is an invitation to anyone so inclined to change my agenda.

My statements aren't dogmatic, they are more like a grocery list :-)

So maybe we could have some dialog about music that would benefit the both of us? I have a feeling there could be some fun in that ...

One final note, my earnest posts about the foci of religion are heartfelt, and never intended to offend or irritate. I haven't always been this way, but so I am now. I find it is both more difficult and more satisfying to accept both people and ideas on their own terms, devout people included.

Part of this is my image of what sort of a grandpa I will be. To me, that is the most important task I have ever undertaken. It's my chance to be the best person I can be, for the most important people in my life :-)

Ok Mike

I'm happy to talk music from time to time although long chats online about scores(I do read music)is not really my thing. I don't take this or any other forum terribly seriously:I just see it as a bit of fun.

On a more serious note I think being 60 is no excuse for finding it harder to leave yourself open to new challenges. Indeed I firmly believe the older you get,the more risks you should take in expanding your mind and pushing back the boundaries of exploration. I have a lady friend who is 105,a survivor of Auschwitz and a musician who is still listening to new music every day! So 60 is just a spring chicken.

Maybe you can be persuaded to get your mind around Berio, Ligeti and Nono. The latter's astonishing "Como una ola de fuerza y luz" should be of interest to you. The pioneering 70's recording with Pollini and Abbado is a demonstration disc if ever I heard one and should be made compulsory at every hi-fi show, even though the music may have the effect of clearing the room in record time.

Come to think of it, maybe you get to know Mozart and Schubert first,

Regards,

Sister E,
or Sister Erotica as I was originally known before I was cut off in my prime by the powers that be.

OK Sister E,

I just ordered "Como una ola de fuerza y luz" with Pollini and Abbado, and will report in when I've heard something :-)

OK -well it's probably unlike anything you've ever heard and please be careful with the volume control. It's more of a sonic wall of sound which tests your tweeters to the limits. You'll see what I mean!

Sister xx

Sister E, you mentioned you read music. What is your musical background?

quote:

However it is known that when mothers are better educated the number of children each mother has tends to reduce, so that is as far as I would advocate any policy went in reality - better education.

Hi George,
Are you suggesting that better education is leading woman to have fewer or no children since they now understand the problems of overpopulation and our future unsustainability of recourses and the human race?

If so, I would suggest their is a flaw in this logic. Better education also means the drive towards greater personal financial goals usually (ie. higher paying job, higher lifestyle (consumerism), more traveling, just more of everything but a family etc). I see a direct link between this and consumerism which is a trend I don't believe you would endorse either. So if you just base the criteria on a resulting low birth rate in the West, I think this is somewhat misleading.

This is just my personal opinion and I don't wish to offend anyone by it. The relationship between education and smaller families (or no offspring) ultimately can be attributed to a selfish, greedy self-interest and a total disconnect or loss of certain values (especially that of a traditional family). This should really be of no surprise. Having children means you have to give up many aspects of your (former) life and in most cases forego a life with financial comfort. The culture of the West now places a higher value on money, status, and buying happiness than it does value "life" itself.

The ironic thing is that none of us would be around to enjoy anything if our parents didn't give up something for us. Yet many are too selfish nowadays to give of themselves to connect themselves to the future.

quote:

Originally posted by Florestan:
The ironic thing is that none of us would be around to enjoy anything if our parents didn't give up something for us. Yet many are too selfish nowadays to give of themselves to connect themselves to the future.

Amen.

quote:

Originally posted by Florestan:

quote:

However it is known that when mothers are better educated the number of children each mother has tends to reduce, so that is as far as I would advocate any policy went in reality - better education.

Hi George,
Are you suggesting that better education is leading woman to have fewer or no children since they now understand the problems of overpopulation and our future unsustainability of recourses and the human race?

If so, I would suggest their is a flaw in this logic. Better education also means the drive towards greater personal financial goals usually (ie. higher paying job, higher lifestyle (consumerism), more traveling, just more of everything but a family etc). I see a direct link between this and consumerism which is a trend I don't believe you would endorse either. So if you just base the criteria on a resulting low birth rate in the West, I think this is somewhat misleading.

This is just my personal opinion and I don't wish to offend anyone by it. The relationship between education and smaller families (or no offspring) ultimately can be attributed to a selfish, greedy self-interest and a total disconnect or loss of certain values (especially that of a traditional family). This should really be of no surprise. Having children means you have to give up many aspects of your (former) life and in most cases forego a life with financial comfort. The culture of the West now places a higher value on money, status, and buying happiness than it does value "life" itself.

The ironic thing is that none of us would be around to enjoy anything if our parents didn't give up something for us. Yet many are too selfish nowadays to give of themselves to connect themselves to the future.

Dear Doug,

Not to cut your post up but leave the context intact, I tried to highlight the the main points that I think I may have a reasonable answer to offer.

First point [in blue]. Some states in India have rampant grouth in popolation, and the resources are very thinly spread - the standard of living not pleasant. Other states though no richer in resources perhaps, have had a more enlightened and long term approach to education, so that girls and boys are literate and aware of a much wider set of ideas through the study of geography and so forth, and in these places the population has stabilised. The standard of living for the poor consumes the existing slim resources much less thinly and people are better off, especially the poorest. There seems to have been no correlation between education and an adoption of western capitalist and consumerist values. [Green point]. If the example of India may be taken as a guide, then it may be a way forward, to turning round the monster of over-population.

As for the linkage with consumerism, it seems to the biggest incentive for buying things that are luxury rather necessisty is having money spare in the pocket. This is increasingly the case in the developing world, and nothing will change that I suspect. At least until the signs of having depleted some natural resources become all too clear.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Sister E, you mentioned you read music. What is your musical background?

I studied piano and clarinet for several years and then worked in the classical music industry for a while in London before doing other things in the media. Im back in the music industry now although I regret now having played an instrument for a while. I hope to rectify that this year,

Sister E

quote:

Originally posted by Sister E.:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Sister E, you mentioned you read music. What is your musical background?

I studied piano and clarinet for several years and then worked in the classical music industry for a while in London before doing other things in the media. Im back in the music industry now although I regret now having played an instrument for a while. I hope to rectify that this year,

Sister E

Why would you regret clarinet? A stunningly beautiful instrument that woos every listener with its oily, lubricated, sensuous sound and a long time favorite of so may composers.

What do you do in the music business now?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by Sister E.:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Sister E, you mentioned you read music. What is your musical background?

I studied piano and clarinet for several years and then worked in the classical music industry for a while in London before doing other things in the media. Im back in the music industry now although I regret now having played an instrument for a while. I hope to rectify that this year,

Sister E

Why would you regret clarinet? A stunningly beautiful instrument that woos every listener with its oily, lubricated, sensuous sound and a long time favorite of so may composers.

What do you do in the music business
now?

I regret not keeping up my playing of the instrument. I write about music.

quote:

Originally posted by Florestan:

quote:

However it is known that when mothers are better educated the number of children each mother has tends to reduce, so that is as far as I would advocate any policy went in reality - better education.

Hi George,
Are you suggesting that better education is leading woman to have fewer or no children since they now understand the problems of overpopulation and our future unsustainability of recourses and the human race?

If so, I would suggest their is a flaw in this logic. Better education also means the drive towards greater personal financial goals usually (ie. higher paying job, higher lifestyle (consumerism), more traveling, just more of everything but a family etc). I see a direct link between this and consumerism which is a trend I don't believe you would endorse either. So if you just base the criteria on a resulting low birth rate in the West, I think this is somewhat misleading.

This is just my personal opinion and I don't wish to offend anyone by it. The relationship between education and smaller families (or no offspring) ultimately can be attributed to a selfish, greedy self-interest and a total disconnect or loss of certain values (especially that of a traditional family). This should really be of no surprise. Having children means you have to give up many aspects of your (former) life and in most cases forego a life with financial comfort. The culture of the West now places a higher value on money, status, and buying happiness than it does value "life" itself.

The ironic thing is that none of us would be around to enjoy anything if our parents didn't give up something for us. Yet many are too selfish nowadays to give of themselves to connect themselves to the future.

Dear Doug,

Not to cut your post up but leave the context intact, I tried to highlight the the main points that I think I may have a reasonable answer to offer.

First point [in blue]. Some states in India have rampant grouth in popolation, and the resources are very thinly spread - the standard of living not pleasant. Other states though no richer in resources perhaps, have had a more enlightened and long term approach to education, so that girls and boys are literate and aware of a much wider set of ideas through the study of geography and so forth, and in these places the population has stabilised. The standard of living for the poor consumes the existing slim resources much less thinly and people are better off, especially the poorest. There seems to have been no correlation between education and an adoption of western capitalist and consumerist values. [Green point]. If the example of India may be taken as a guide, then it may be a way forward, to turning round the monster of over-population.

As for the linkage with consumerism, it seems to the biggest incentive for buying things that are luxury rather necessisty is having money spare in the pocket. This is increasingly the case in the developing world, and nothing will change that I suspect. At least until the signs of having depleted some natural resources become all too clear.

ATB from George

Dear Mike, and Sis!

Do you think that you could pssibly start a relevant thread on Muisc, as this thread is opperating on two levels - Yours and the topic!

Sorry to point this out. Hope you are not offended, but the substance of this thread is not worked out yet.

Thanks and ATB from George