The Density of Music
Posted by: mikeeschman on 22 April 2009
Another way to view music is by considering how persistent a given work is in presenting you with new musical ideas, be they in the melody, harmony, rhythm or any combination of these.
I begin to think that the more music intrudes itself upon you with new sensations, the more involved you become in what is playing out. At some point, the music becomes so insistent that there is room for nothing else.
Human expression in melody, harmony and rhythm, with no other associations.
Taking the Shostakovitch Symphony No. 5 at random and from memory, it's long, it's loud, there is some beautiful melody thought I personally find the militant melody objectionable, and I don't think there are more than three musical lines going at any given point in the Shostakovitch 5th.
Taking the Beethoven Op. 109 third movement, there is daylight showing between melody and harmony. You follow the vibrant lines and harmony follows in its wake. Or that's the way I tend to hear it.
The late Beethoven String Quartets operate in four lines with no daylight between harmony and melody. The lines are all clear and distinct and are fused to the harmony. Melody and harmony become one thing, and without losing any of their character.
Now that is a different kind of listen :-)
Incidentally, this has made me aware of another of Beethoven's virtues. People complain about how he uses instruments, and have often made corrections. I find his voicing to be sublime and unerringly correct.
So is anyone else curious about this density idea?
Posted on: 22 April 2009 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
People complain about how he uses instruments, and have often made corrections.
Who complains? And what are their complaints?
Best,
Fred
Posted on: 23 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by fred simon:
Who complains? And what are their complaints?
A number of conductors and composers have undertaken partial or wholesale reorchestration
of beethoven symphonies over the past 100 or so years.
They felt the instrumental lines were too thick, the demands on particular instruments were too great, lines were buried, and other complaints of this ilk.
Mahler comes to mind as one of the more aggressive reorchestrators of beethoven symphonies, but he is not alone in this.
Posted on: 23 April 2009 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
A number of conductors and composers have undertaken partial or wholesale reorchestration
of beethoven symphonies over the past 100 or so years.
They felt the instrumental lines were too thick, the demands on particular instruments were too great, lines were buried, and other complaints of this ilk.
They thought that their more modern musical instruments were superior to period instruments for this music, and bisides their orchestras were too large. So they had in some instances to reorchestrate the music to "restore" the balance they thought the composer intended. But with period instruments and proper scoring, there are no balance problems in Beethovens music at all.
Posted on: 23 April 2009 by mjamrob
quote:
They felt the instrumental lines were too thick, the demands on particular instruments were too great, lines were buried, and other complaints of this ilk.
Couldn't differing instrument characteristics of different periods have something to do with this? I believe Gardner and Norrington among others were more careful in matching the instruments to those used in Beethoven's time.
Just a thought.
regards,
mat
Posted on: 23 April 2009 by mjamrob
Sorry seem to have posted at the same time as pe-zulu.
mat
Posted on: 23 April 2009 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by mjamrob:
Sorry seem to have posted at the same time as pe-zulu.
Yes, but this does not make your point less valid.
Posted on: 23 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by mjamrob:
Couldn't differing instrument characteristics of different periods have something to do with this? I believe Gardiner and Norrington among others were more careful in matching the instruments to those used in Beethoven's time.
They have everything to do with this, and i find the gardiner renditions to be more "transparent" because of his efforts to perform these symphonies as might have been done in beethoven's time, as pe-zulu says.
Posted on: 23 April 2009 by mjamrob
I would really like to hear the Gardiner recordings of Beethoven's symphonies. Having a vinyl based system has its disadvantages. Still the Norrington cycle is very good.
I did hear Gardiner perform Beethoven's 5th at the proms some years ago, it was truly a revelation. It certainly had a transparency as you say Mike.
regards,
mat
Posted on: 23 April 2009 by u5227470736789439
So do the live series recorded at the Royal Festival Hall at the Beethoven Festivals [1957-1965], conducted by Otto Klemperer [and now issued from BBC Radio tapes by Testament], and not only do they have a musical balance that is compleltely lucid, even if played on what were then modern instruments [though not the same as today's modern instrments] the orchestra played with a conductor whose ear for balance rendered the need for re-orchestration redundant, but more than that the performances glow with a wisdom that has never been equalled since, sadly, among those conductors who have [rightly] chosen to use real period instruments.
For the antithesis of Klemperer's lucid, compelling, and lythe Beethoven style, consider Karajan's treacly, stodgy, arthritically staged efforts as probably the low point in all Beethoven performance as preserved at least by the gramophone!
ATB from George
Posted on: 23 April 2009 by mikeeschman
GFFJ, i still love gardiner's beethoven. to me, the klemperer sounds like beethoven conducted by a man who has had a stroke. the local symphony musicians i know do not hold him in high regard, judging him as average, and i agree. but that is just one man's opinion.
but i have gone in a different direction tonight. i went into the LP archives and came up with these two gems :
Tchaikovsky swan lake-leningrad Philharmonic orchestra- mravinsky
and
herbie hancock-feets don't fail me now
first off, about lps - everything is more relaxed and natural, but somehow the music is "blunted" - i think this is the result of constricted dynamics. this can be forgiven because the "boogie factor" is so yummy :-)
if i needed an example of some music that puts everything in the service of melody, swan lake fits the bill. there's not much else going on.
the herbie hancock is a trip in the wayback machine, very very cool. i don't think this one is survivable on a cd - it has to be an lp. boogie, boogie, boogie ....
Posted on: 24 April 2009 by Mat Cork
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
For the antithesis of Klemperer's lucid, compelling, and lythe Beethoven style, consider Karajan's treacly, stodgy,
Oof, sounds smashing though, I'll take a copy with custard.
Posted on: 24 April 2009 by mikeeschman
GFFJ, you are right about the karajan to my ears. he seems to have the ability to make every composer sound alike, slick, glossy, lacking in nuance, and without insight.
Posted on: 24 April 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mike,
Some time ago I started a two year long thread about klemperer's Beethoven recordings with a special attention to the recently issued live BBC recordings [issued on Testament], and it is certainly true that some of the late studio recordings did not always serve Beethoven's music that well in isolated instances.
Even late on he in his career, Klemperer was capable of a supreme mastery of the music and a startling drive, even in recordings made in his eighties, but there are times when one wishes that the EMI company had simply set about a reissue of an earlier recording!
On the other hand the live performances are altogether even more revelatory thn the best of the studio efforts!
Hunt that old thread out.
I cannot attempt to gloss in one post what I wrote in instaments over two years, and so nicely complemented by views in both agreement, and even more interesting, of course, in disagreement!
ATB from George
Posted on: 24 April 2009 by mikeeschman
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
it is certainly true that some of the late studio recordings did not always serve Beethoven's music that well
thanks george, but i have two complete sets of beethoven symphonies, and another seven partial sets, which between them give all the satisfaction that is required.
of everything i've heard, the gardiner remains my favorite.
i'm a little disappointed that no one has taken a shot at playing with this notion of density, as i think it would have some real entertainment value :-)
Posted on: 24 April 2009 by FlyMe
quote:
Originally posted by munch:
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
For the antithesis of Klemperer's lucid, compelling, and lythe Beethoven style, consider Karajan's treacly, stodgy, arthritically staged efforts as probably the low point in all Beethoven performance as preserved at least by the gramophone!
ATB from George
It's good to know I am not alone in my views of Karajan's Beethoven symphonies!
