Noise limiters.

We're returning to the UK at the end of April and I'm looking forward to seeing music in smaller, local venues so I've signed up.

When we first came to Brisbane we used to go to a good little venue that was the backroom of a pub under the Story Bridge. The area used to be a working docks area but was now on the up and up and hence the new apartment blocks going up had some influence on the decision to force the venue to install one of these noise limiters.

The immediate result was constant interruptions in mid-song - the longer term result was that within a few more months the venue became acoustic only. A few years after this it was "improved" to be a soul-less concrete & glass monstrosity and no longer offers live music (or anything else other than people noise for that matter.)

If you value live music in local venues follow the link in BigH's OP.

Cheers
Scott

Why do people like their music loud? What is the cut off level? If above 90 dB then I am all for the new regulation ...

ATB from George

"These young people and their loud music".
You don't listen to loud music, but seem to think that no one else should be allow either.
I'm sorry George but if it's too loud then go away.
There are already too many people who seem to know better than me what I should do or be allowed to do.

Dear Howard,

If it is over 90 dB then deafness will follow. Simple as that. Why should enternment licence holders pedal deafness and profit from it?

ATB from George

Sorry, sayig "if it is over 90db then deafnes will follow" is simplistic nonsense.

Its not volume level which is a problem -- it is distortion.

Any decent orchestra generates over 90dB for the players sat there on stage. Are you suggesting we disband all orchestras or ensure they never go above mezzoforte????

Just signed it - more petty small minded bureaucracy.

If I'd paid good money to see a band, I'd want a refund if the musicians weren't able to perform freely. The history of rock would never have happened if this rule had been in place in the 60's/70's.

regards,
mat

Stop wasting your time the 'legislation' is a myth.

errr, what legislation? Does it come in on April 1st?
And even if it was true, the way these limiters work is not as simple as one might expect. IMO anything that protects (particularly) young people from hearing damage should not be discarded out of hand. Noise levels in orchestra pits is another issue - health and safety at work; and a lot of measurements have been done in this area

In terms of the sound pressure levels, particularly in the theatre pit, the levels achieved in classical orchestras nowadays, using much louder, fashionable, and almost Universally adopted American broad-bore brass instruments frequently does rise above 90 dB, and this is the cause of a serious issue of hearing loss among orchestral msucians.

I reckon the noise ban ought to apply to orchestras as well.

Then we could return to the use of narrow bore English or French brass, which allows for a proper balance with the human voice and the string band.

I certainly would not exempt classical music from such a noise ban.

Anything over 90 dB has long since become so loud as to merely be noise not music, whatever genre is being played.

ATB from George

There are various rules in place & on the horizon relating to noise level exposure.

The Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005 came into force for all industry sectors in GB on 6 April 2006, except for the music and entertainment sectors where they came into force on 6 April 2008.

They are to protect employees who are exposed every working day as well as the general public.
Although no high noise level exposure is good for hearing,
it's regular exposure that really does the damage.
I am in favour of legislation that protects workers from harm in the course of their duties.

quote:

Any decent orchestra generates over 90dB for the players sat there on stage. Are you suggesting we disband all orchestras or ensure they never go above mezzoforte????

Plenty of Classical musicians are deaf.

for myself, i look forward to the day when all the joy has been legislated out of live music :-(

Pardon Mike? (As the live music worker repeatedly said, due to severe hearing damage after long term exposure to high audio levels)

quote:

(As the live music worker repeatedly said, due to severe hearing damage after long term exposure to high audio levels)

After not using any of the protection devices on offer.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
for myself, i look forward to the day when all the joy has been legislated out of live music :-(

define "live music". If you mean people playing real instruments, then we will be just fine.

If you mean nasty overdriven PA systems, then the distortion in them will damage your hearing. I never cease to be amazed as to how nasty many amp/speaker combos are for "live" music.

"If you mean nasty overdriven PA systems, then the distortion in them will damage your hearing. I never cease to be amazed as to how nasty many amp/speaker combos are for "live" music."

and some of you use the music/sound from a live electronic performance as a reference for your system.

not really -- live electronic performance recordings tend to be from the desk. not from a mic swinging in front of a pile of pa speakers.

Exactly Jon, so ...

quote:

After not using any of the protection devices on offer.

How does the mixing desk dude get things right while wearing ear defenders Biggy?

by recording as many channels as necessary, and then going back to the studio to do a fresh mix of the live event.

noone in their right mind would do a final stereo mix "on the fly" live at the event. You would always leave yourself the chance to rebalance, remix, drop in new vocals to correct things.

I was talking about the technical Johnny operating the audience PA mixing desk Jon!

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
In terms of the sound pressure levels, particularly in the theatre pit, the levels achieved in classical orchestras nowadays, using much louder, fashionable, and almost Universally adopted American broad-bore brass instruments frequently does rise above 90 dB, and this is the cause of a serious issue of hearing loss among orchestral musicians.

I reckon the noise ban ought to apply to orchestras as well.

Then we could return to the use of narrow bore English or French brass, which allows for a proper balance with the human voice and the string band.

I certainly would not exempt classical music from such a noise ban.

Anything over 90 dB has long since become so loud as to merely be noise not music, whatever genre is being played.

ATB from George

the idea behind using the large bore brass is to get a seamless tonal pallet from the french horns through the trombones to the trumpets. while this works, some of the unique tonal colors of these instruments become "homogenized".

it also has the effect of giving the brass a bigger dynamic range.

last night i listened to stravinsky's pulcinella with boulez and a french orchestra. instantly, i could tell the brass were small or medium bore instruments. this was evident by the brilliance of the playing.

a lot of musical beauty is being given up in the race for tonal sameness and dynamic range.

thankfully, there are still orchestras that aren't buying it.

Dear Mike,

You have hit on a real problem for in no way should French Horns make a homogenous sound in blend with trombones! Rarely are they scored together, though Schumann did make this definate mistake. The different sound worlds of corni and tromboni really make a good intonation very difficult, an a pleasant blend all but impossible.

The other advantage of the old Besson [Paris] and Boosey and Hawkes [London} brass and horns [for two first quality examples] was that they could play forte without actually being very loud at all. They get a forte, brassy tone at quite modest levels of actual sound pressures. This allows for the correct tone quality [given any particular dynamic indication in the music] without either drowning other orchestral sections [strings, wood-wind etc.] or solo singers ...

The rise of the broad-bore brass and horn came because of several reasons. They are easier to play [fewer split notes, mainly], they blend with more easily [having fewer characteristic quirks on certain notes], and they became common place in the USA where orchestra frequently have much larger halls to project into. This means that generally US based orchestras have much larger string sections [than their European counterparts], which balance better with the big US style of brass playing - perhaps typified most consistenntly by the Chicago Orchestra.

However the downside is that this often requires the doubling of the woodwind parts which detracts from the personality from having the lines taken by soloists, and contributes to a blander more generalised style of music making, which however technically perfect is, for me, less involving on the purely expresive level.

If sound pressure legislation in Europe led to a re-adoption of the older European narrow-bore brass and horn again so as to get a true forte tone as lesser absolute SPLs, then I would really welcome it with open arms.

As for the future of live Rock and Pop music, I will leave that for arguments between enthusiasts for the genre! One reason I enjoy recordings over live in Rock and Pop, is that I reduce the volume to what is for me an acceptable level, which many true enthusiasts would think cripplingly quiet!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Mike,

The other advantage of the old Besson [Paris] and Boosey and Hawkes [London} brass and horns [for two first quality examples] was that they could play forte without actually being very loud at all. They get a forte, brassy tone at quite modest levels of actual sound pressures.
ATB from George

it's the oldest trick in the book. playing a smaller bore brass highlights the instruments' overtones, producing a brighter tone that "cuts through" the orchestra without blowing your brains out.

on bruckner, mahler and even the mathis der maler, the organ-like sound of a big bore brass section can be quite effective. on beethoven, mendelssohn, mozart, haydn, stravinsky i find big bore sections sound bloated and lacking in character.

by the way george, the folklore i have been subjected to suggests that the big bore fad originated in germany, not chicago.

and it's not the big bore instruments that are less prone to cracked notes, it's the enormous mouthpieces that are in fashion today.

the french ride to the rescue :-)

Dear Mike,

You may well be right about the trend for broad-bore brass starting in Germany. Certainly no orchestra in Europe consistently plays so loudly as the BPO!

Vienna is another matter though, no doubt helped by the excellence of the Golden Hall [Musikveriensalle], which no doubt has shaped their tonal and dynamic profile! Much more subtle in my view.

Your point about the much broader mouthpieces is well taken, though broad mouthpieces do run with broadbore instruments. One could not imagine playing an old Boosey pea-shooter trumpet with a modern mouthpiece, for sure!

It is also true that the Chicago Orchestra is in the German tradition whereas the Boston Orchestra is definitely a Francophone band. Happens that I prefer the actual sound of the Bostoners as well, perhaps because it reminds me on times of our own London Orchestras.

My last [of three] bass teacher was the principal in the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra [still is!], which is a lovely orchestra of real quality as their fairly infrequent recording show, for those not lucky enough to have heard them in Concerts. His last teacher was Ed Barker, in his turn, principal bass player in the Boston Symphony Orchestra, and certainly one of the greatest exponents of the French style [also the English style] of over-hand [like 'cello] bowing.

Whilst the French style gets a lighter sound in general, it is more articulate when called for, and better for sostenuto and certainly can achieve a seemless legatto more easily as well. I think it tends to lead to more supple, dynamically graded, and expressive playing. To get a big forte sound is harder work, so is reserved more for the clinching moment, rather than applied indescriminately ...

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Mike,

Whilst the French style gets a lighter sound in general, it is more articulate when called for, and better for sostenuto and certainly can achieve a seemless legatto more easily as well. I think it tends to lead to more supple, dynamically graded, and expressive playing. To get a big forte sound is harder work, so is reserved more for the clinching moment, rather than applied indescriminately ...

ATB from George

i find the french sound more colorful, a greater range in the pallet of tones. and the fortes seem more "electric", for want of a better term.