Noise limiters.

Dear Mike,

You have a copy-book example of the best French playing on that old 1930 Paris Orchestra recording with Monteux of the Fantastic Symphony.

I could not imagine any orchestra playing the music that effectively now, even if some of the technical corners might be slightly more neatly taken! Just possibly!!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Mike,

You have a copy-book example of the best French playing on that old 1930 Paris Orchestra recording with Monteux of the Fantastic Symphony.

I could not imagine any orchestra playing the music that effectively now, even if some of the technical corners might be slightly more neatly taken! Just possibly!!

ATB from George

george, i wish that paris orchestra was still around with monteaux, so they could make a new recording with modern equipment. in my mind's eye, they are producing a color pallet to be wondered at.

i have listened to it seven or eight times now, and its charms are not yet wearing thin.

in particular, the sense of rhythm blows my socks off!

quote:

My last [of three] bass teacher was the principal in the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra [still is!], which is a lovely orchestra of real quality as their fairly infrequent recording show, for those not lucky enough to have heard them in Concerts.

George,
You cannot be serious! (to quote someone or other). The Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra has made very many fine recordings in recent years, notably those conducted by the wonderful Marin Allsop on Naxos. Her Brahms cycle and Dvorak 9th symphonies are outstanding
Regards
Ken

Dear Mike,

I remember buying the old Paris recording on CD many years ago, and was so excited that I got it played over on the shop gramophone.

Another customer wandered over and was incredibly rude about it, saying that no conductor before or since Herbert von Karajan with the Berliners had done the music justice.

My response was that he ought to listen to it, rather than compare it. I guess my face said the rest wordlessly, as he asked for my opinion of HvK, to which I replied that my opinion of him could not be politely uttered in a public place!

Some people have no taste!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by KenM:
George,
You cannot be serious! (to quote someone or other). The Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra has made very many fine recordings in recent years, notably those conducted by the wonderful Marin Allsop on Naxos. Her Brahms cycle and Dvorak 9th symphonies are outstanding
Regards, Ken

Dear Ken,

I was not aware of the recordings with Marin Alsopp. I know she is a very fashionable conductor, but by no means my cup of tea, so I did not go hunting her recordings out.

I did get some on the basis of my old teachers recommendations though, including that strange thing, the Elgar Third Symphony in Payne's reconstruction on Naxos.

The playting is wonderful and almost made a case for the effort to revive it!

I am a temendous fan of the orchestra though especially in the time of Jakob Kreutsberg as chief conductor.

The best concert I ever heard of symphonic music contained the Fifth of Schubert conducted by Paavo Berglund. I had a very good seat as a guest of the oprchestra, and I was sitting by a very distinguished looking lady. She clearly spotted how much I enjoyed it, and asked me what I thought. I told her that Mr Berglund was a great master, and the orchestra my favourite in the UK.

Then a young man sitting the other side of her [a member of the Berglund familly] said that it would be his please to introduce me to Mrs Paavo Berglund! We laughed madly after that!

ATB from George

I met someone through work the other day who wore two fairly meaty external hearing aids and I was shocked to learn that the damage was caused by amplified music. In fact, while this guy had gone to loads of gigs over the years, no doubt accumulating damage along the way, he hadn't noticed any problems until he went to a single Chumbawumba concert and went deaf in the course of the evening. If they had had a volume limiter he would very likely still have his hearing.

Having said that, it seems this exciting tale of the idiocy of the properly qualified may be wrong - or at least somewhat garbled - as such tales so often are. This from an environmental health officer on another forum:

quote:

This is not a legislative requirement currently. If it does come into force it should be based round employment legislation.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...lth/page23.htm

Would depend on venue (distance from speakers to staff, duration of shift to determine exposure, dosage levels etc). As venues are obliged to supply earplugs to staff it would be very difficult to determine dosage levels with this dampening taken into account.

In short, I just can't see it being workable.

George,
Sorry, the examples I quoted were with other orchestras, not the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra. However, Marin Alsop has made numerous recordings of music by Bartok, Orff, Weill, Bernstein and sundry other American composers for Naxos. I liked most, and loved some of them.
Regards,
Ken

quote:

Originally posted by David Scott?:
he hadn't noticed any problems until he went to a single Chumbawumba concert and went deaf in the course of the evening.

Funny that - the two times I'VE seen Chumbawamba I've been partially deaf for a while afterwards (but OK the next day). The REAL damage for me was seeing Pantera at Plymouth Pavillions - I couldn't hear any real HF and had bad ringing for 3 days, and have permanent tinnitus as well. This was due to the Pavillions' rig being shockingly poor and overdriven. ...and no, I wasn't at the front - I was in the seated bit near the back.

I've been to psytrance nights at the Stratford Rex where you can feel the beats right through your body, even right at the back of the room, and had my head right near the bass bins, and not had any ringing when leaving after 8 hours. A good rig being driven well within its abilities. One time, I went to an afterparty at EQ after that, and went into treble-break-up-screeeeeeech within about 10 minutes. A poor rig being vastly overdriven.

Whilst pressure CAN make you deaf, distortion is definitely more damaging in my experience!

Mind you - at least Pantera were worth getting tinnitus for. Met a girl a couple of years ago who was at the same gig; she went to about 10 gigs there at Plmyouth in a year or so, and went very VERY deaf.

To get back to the original point of this thread, the OP is quite correct. I have operated the mixing desk for a band for a couple of years and I can confirm that it is indeed impossible to operate plugged into one of these devices. In order to get a decent sound balance, you have to lift the instruments and vocals to a level where they are not overpowered by the drum kit. I have found that these meters are set so low that an un-miked drum kit will trigger a power cut off even if the PA system is switched off!! The only way we have been able to actually play anything at these venues is to run a power lead from a socket not connected to the cut-off. This is of course illegal - but the alternative is not playing. I always operate the PA system well within its limits (It's a 2kW Mackie) and not excessively loud (any quieter and you can hear the audience above the band), yet the noise indicators simply light up red.

If this is widely enforced, it will mean the death of live music.

I'm signing the petition now!

All the best,
Trev

Ooops, looks like we'd better ban the piccolo...

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

Phil

Have you measured the audio level from your PA Trev?

Your post makes a lot of sense Trev, if only more PA system operators were as intelligent and responsible.

regards,
mat

As I thought the "going into law" theme from the original post I mentioned was a No10 "floating" question to test the water. Apparently it was too hot.

Thanks for the comments!

555 - I have occasionally taken a sound level meter to gigs (borrowed from work). Of course the measured SPLs vary depending on the position taken but in the main listening area, they tend to vary between 97 and 115db (the latter level only being reached when the band is really "going for it"). These levels may appear high, but background conversation levels can measure in excess of 85db in busy venues. The safe level for sound levels is time dependent. OSHA permissible noise levels allow 97 db for up to 3 hours and 115db for 15 minutes. The pain threshold is typically 125db and permanent hearing damage will occur very quickly above 140db. The energy transferred to your eardrums doubles for every 3db increase in SPL. My guess is that most of these noise limiters are set to trigger around 95db - hence the problems. In my (distant) youth, I remember attending a Black Sabbath concert at the Birmingham Odeon where the SPL was way above the pain threshold and my hearing was impaired for at least 3 days afterwards. These days, once I have set up the PA and completed EQ and sound check, I wear earplugs designed not to cut the HF response which attenuate the sound by 20db.

I guess the purpose of these ramblings can be summed up as follows:

1. People attending rock concerts expect the sound to be loud enough to "feel" the music. Also, there is a minimum volume below which the sound will become unbalanced because you can't turn down an acoustic drum-kit.

2. Over a short period of time, provided that some common sense is applied, hearing damage is unlikely.

3. Rather than spoiling everyone's enjoyment and making the sound tech's life impossible, I would suggest that instead of insisting on noise limiters,the bar staff who may be regularly exposed to high SPLs could wear suitable ear protection.

quote:

People attending rock concerts expect the sound to be loud enough to "feel" the music. Also, there is a minimum volume below which the sound will become unbalanced because you can't turn down an acoustic drum-kit.

That's an assumption which will not be true for a number of punters at any given show.
Drum kits can be attenuated with a sonically opaque visually transparent screen.

quote:

Over a short period of time, provided that some common sense is applied, hearing damage is unlikely.

I admire your idealism, but the fact is many venue workers aren't provided with appropriate ear defenders.
How many adolescents apply common sense to their actions?

quote:

Rather than spoiling everyone's enjoyment and making the sound tech's life impossible, I would suggest that instead of insisting on noise limiters,the bar staff who may be regularly exposed to high SPLs could wear suitable ear protection.

As likely to work as bar staff wearing breathing apparatus to provide protection from secondary smoking.

555,

You make some interesting points and maybe in the future, we will have to work with these very low levels. This would involve muffling the drumkit (or making the drummer play with brushes or using an electronic kit) and asking the audience to be quiet during the performance as in a classical concert (of course the bar would have to shut during the performance because people ordering drinks would be a huge distraction). However - it's not exactly rock and roll is it?

I've doen a bit of research into the law on this and the maximum SPL recommended for exposure to audiences in the 2005 control of noise at work act is 107 db(A). The noise levels I have measured were peak levels because the meter I used was not capable of measuring average decibel levels. I would estimate however that we would be below this limit over the course of a gig. If an average SPL of 107 decibels is allowed, then peak levels will of course be much higher and 115 db would be reached in some instances. This means that noise limiters should be set ABOVE 107 db to allow for peaks and probably around 115 db. In my experience, they are set far lower than that and this is causing the problems.

Finally, what's wrong with having bar staff wear properly designed earplugs in permanently noisy venues. This is enforced routinely in industry.

Good points well made Trev.

To answer your question I'm all for venue staff wearing appropriate earplugs.
My (cynical) concern is how many would not;
either due to failure to supply by the employer, or 'it's not rock n roll' ignorance.

About the proposed law - They had something like that in DDR Sweden in the 1970's. A long power cable to somewhere not controlled by the limiter was the standard fix.

JohanR