mackerras and brahms

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
i really wanted to like them, but the small orchestra sounds thin to my ears. his phrasing is both unique and interesting.

That was more or less my take, though I'll confess to finding parts of most of the symphonies a bit boring. Brahms needs a big band, and a conductor steeped in the central European tradition.


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A band playing out of tune will cause many sound wave cancellations. Thus this ensemble will have a much smaller resultant sound. In fact, superior intonation will add even more tones by sympathetic vibrations.

this makes inner voices stand out clearly, allowing you to hear all the notes that are being played. so you hear the composition as the composer intended.

I'm sorry you didn't like them. I do wish there were recordings of Mackerras's larger band performances available for comparison (I believe a recent Philharmonia concert may have been recorded though).

That said, I don't at all agree that Brahms needs a big band. And the evidence is that Brahms himself didn't think so. I think they work can work very well both ways.

Small band performances were what first hooked me into Brahms. I heard the broadcasts of the cycle Mackerras did with the SCO at the 2003 Edinburgh festival (unfortunately I arrived too late to hear the actual concerts) and picked up the studio set as a result.

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
I'm sorry you didn't like them.

me too.

my biggest musical disappointment this year has been my failure to love the late beethoven string quartets. i have listened to the julliard and emerson quartets persistently, and studied the scores and followed single parts time and again. but they don't light my fire. this is a personal failing i find disturbing.

Dear Mike,

Those late Beethoven Quartets are rather ellusive. May I recommened two performances of them that ought to draw you into the musical spirtual world of the pieces with devastating power, even if the actual performances themselves are not quite in the modern "chrome plated" virtuoso stle of the Julliards or whatever - posessed of absolutely perfect technical address [presumably after considerable editing to smooth out any infelicities].

The Busch Quartet recordings done for HMV in the 1930s.

The Budapest Quartet set recorded in the early 1950s for American Columbia.

These have no virtuoso flash in the music making though they are both from quartets of very capable players whose capacity is to present the music with no distraction from the essense of it - the spirituality!

After these, you will find that the drier, technically more self-conscious and perfect modern approach actually begins to make sense as well, but I suspect that the older performances will never leave your affections once the music takes you.

I still have the set, much lauded by critics, from the Vegh Quartet [on Auvidis, or Calliope - and I cannot remember which], and these leave me as cold as two days dead turkey. And Sandor Vegh simply plays out of tune sometimes as well which onl adds to the misery these critically acclaimed recordings produce in me. I would give themn away, but I am not a sadist! Better to throw them away and save the CD cases, which for me are certainly more valuable.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Mike,
And Sandor Vegh simply plays out of tune sometimes as well which only adds to the misery these critically acclaimed recordings produce in me.
ATB from George

i started with the julliard set - the first violin is sharp throughout! i couldn't get past that.

the emerson is flawlessly played, but the music sounds positively moth eaten.

i will give the budapest quartet a try.

I think the Budapest Quartet is something that, for whatever it may be worth, George, Todd and I are in complete agreement of.

It was Todd's advocacy of the United Archives issue (not sure of its availability out there - but around £25 for the set in the UK) of the complete 50s recordings that persuaded me to buy them. I'd never got on too brilliantly with them before. The way the quartet seems to speak with one voice is just magical.

regards, Tam

Since the discussion has switched gears somewhat, I'll just go ahead and advocate a new-ish set of LvB's quartets. The Prazak Quartet, on Praga, has emerged as my favorite modern (ie, digital) set. Technically they cede nothing to any other ensemble, but unlike the cold Emerson and the uneven Takacs (great until the late quartets), the Prazak positively nail all of the works, and deliver one of the best Op 131 recordings I've heard. Top notch sound, too. They don't displace the Vegh or Budapest, though they do join those ensembles.



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Dear Todd,

Great news that you have found a new set of the [Beethoven] Quartets of this sort of quality!

You ar going to ruin me me yet - financially at least!

Thanks from George

I have recordings of the early and late Beethoven string quartets by the Petersen Quartet on Capriccio that I think are excellent. Opus 131, my favorite quartet by any composer, is especially fine. These recordings may be out of print now, however. I came to these pieces years ago on recordings by the Fine Arts Quartet, which were superb and may also be available on CD. These works are indeed challenging but worth the effort to learn.

While the Budapest issue on United Archives may be from the 50s, I don't personally think any apology needs to be made for the sound which, while mono, is excellent.

regards, Tam

Didnt really like maracas as a conductor -- was alway a bit wooly with his beat, and wafty. At least in my experience under him (breaks open fresh box of fnarrs)

Dear Jon,

Who were your favourite conductors from the player perspective?

In my playing days, I found that I tended to either be neutral about a given conductor, or antagonistic, though I never let it show, at least if it it was a properly payed gig.

I always found that good contact with the orcheastral leader was much more use! Though generally a rank and file player has to keep with the section leader as a matter of correct procedure, as in every case it is the section leader who will get it in the neck from the conductor if something goes wrong in his or her section!

Occasionally I would lead the basses, depending who was fixed to play, and in that situation, attending to the conductor and orchestral leader is rather crucial.

What was your instrument?

On the issue of a vague beat, sometimes what looks vague [to the audience] is actually rather communicative, and sometimes what looks precise is much harder to fathom. A good clear up-beat is worth any amount of precision in what follows in my experience.

ATB from George

i liked those with personality -- found maracas to be too bland.

dutoit, rostropovitch, kondrashin, rattle, boulez -- liked them all

was even impressed by charlie groves when i was rehersal stand-in pianist for pascal roge on brahms piano concerto.

all a long time ago now

quote:

Originally posted by jon honeyball:
i liked those with personality -- found maracas to be too bland.

I must say I find this surprising. Certainly the comments of most other musicians I've come across who've worked with him are quite the reverse and, on the occasions I've met Mackerras (albeit not in a professional context), I've found him to have no shortage of personality.

regards, Tam

quote:

Originally posted by jon honeyball:
i liked those with personality --

dutoit, rostropovitch, kondrashin, rattle, boulez -- liked them all

was even impressed by charlie groves when i was rehersal stand-in pianist for pascal roge on brahms piano concerto.

all a long time ago now

i would love to hear more stories about this. now that would be a good read! if you are feeling generous ? please :-)

To go back to an earlier digression, the Vegh Quartet's Beethoven recordings are amongst the most sublime performances of any music that I've ever heard. Anyone who thinks that the CD cases are more valuable than the discs they contain must have cloth ears.

Back on point. I attended all of the Mackerras/Philharmonia concerts at the RFH a couple of years ago. That was the orchestra with which Sir Chuck should have recorded these mighty works. They might have been worthy successors to Toscanini (Testament) and Klemperer (EMI) with the same band.

Dear Graham,

The last thing that I have is cloth ears! Never mind the self-assessment, I was noted as a bass player, "who played in time, and in tune" and this is by no means universal. I have fallen out which other bass players [and I mean as in "never spoken again"] over faulty intonation.

Sandor Vegh not only starts the odd note out of tune, but he maintains the note as if it is not a significant mistake.

Even Adolf Busch, working entirely without editing, shows how one can "correct" an off-pitch started note in professional style.

If you have a friend who you would like to give a pristine CD set of the Vegh Beethoven Quartets as well, I will happily post them on. I was shocked that the set was so flawed after the recommendation that I was given for them:

"The greatest Beethoven playing you will ever find ..." or words to that effect.

I have not known what to do with them for more than ten years. Hence their pristine condition - merely played twice from end to end, and then put away ...

Sorry, but this is even worse than Gould plaing Bach in his inimtable [and rightly unimitated] style in my opinion. I can admire every aspect apart from the tuning, which is simply not quite second rank, according to even provincial orchestral standards, let alone stellar String Quartet playing.

ATB from George

George/Fred

Not for the first time, we'll just have to agree to disagree (on Vegh, and I am very much aware of the odd missed note).

I'm sure that you'd have loved the Mackerras/Philharmonia Brahms concerts, though! I spoke to an old boy there who had been at the Toscanini perfomances 50 years earlier and who thought that these were of similar stature. (But then I seem to recall that you don't rate the Toscanini set, or am I misremembering?).

Graham

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

I was noted as a bass player, "who played in time, and in tune" and this is by no means universal.

Sorry, but this is even worse than Gould plaing Bach in his inimtable [and rightly unimitated] style in my opinion.

on time and in tune :-)

i have a recording of glenn gould playing the last three beethoven piano sonatas (op. 109/110/111). they make me laugh my ass off :-)
i will never discard them, they are too funny.

but i do like his original goldberg variations.
what is it about gould that turns you off?

Dear Graham,

Going on MacKerras's Dvorak, Janacek, Schubert, and his Mozart, I would not mind a bet that in Brahms, and with the Philharmonia, that the results would have been spell-binding.

All the best from George [Fredrik!]

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

....

Sorry, but this is even worse than Gould plaing Bach in his inimtable [and rightly unimitated] style in my opinion.

on time and in tune :-)

i have a recording of glenn gould playing the last three beethoven piano sonatas (op. 109/110/111). they make me laugh my ass off :-)
i will never discard them, they are too funny.

but i do like his original goldberg variations.
what is it about gould that turns you off?

DEar Mike,

This is definitley for of air correspondence!

I was once involved in the thirteen page "polite discussion" on the topic, [and no, I am not going to post a link!] on the subject of the Goldbergs as GG plays them.

IME, people either love the performances or hate them!

ATB from George

Unfortunately yes!

"Scared for life, I am." [Yoda voice].

ATB from George FRedrik!

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:

Back on point. I attended all of the Mackerras/Philharmonia concerts at the RFH a couple of years ago. That was the orchestra with which Sir Chuck should have recorded these mighty works. They might have been worthy successors to Toscanini (Testament) and Klemperer (EMI) with the same band.

Judged by Mackerras´ recent uninspired live Choral Symphony recording with the Philharmonia, the golden days of this band seem to be history.