Supercap with NAC 82

The 52 will lure you in the end, so may as well go for the Supercap and be ready.
malcolm

agreed - buy the S/C. The 52 will draw you in in the end. Yes, the 82 is 'good enough' for the S/C (hell, my old 32.5 is good enough for an S/C!).

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

When I first demoed an 82 about three years ago I made the 'mistake' of taking it home for a week with a SC since the dealer was out of HC's. To be fair, they tried to talk me out of doing this and to wait until they got a HC. Once a HC was available I took it home and A/B'd both. No contest - I breathed hard, my wallet screamed but I bought the SC. The 82/HC was a big jump from my previous 42.5/Snaps but adding the SC brought a coherence to the music that I couldn't do without.

Having said that, you may be better served by maxing out on your front end instead. The last three years have been a frenzy of upgrading for me, partly for personal reasons and partly because I got a taste of what can be achieved when I got the 82/SC. Looking back on this I'm more convinced than ever that source first and setup (including mains and stands) should be the primary focus and that pre-amp upgrades come second to this.

Regards
Steve

Kan man, you've got me in a dilemma now. I think I already have my electronic's sorted in the support department after much experimentation but I have seriously been seriously considering some mana stands for my bariks. I'll probably get both those and the supercap in the end but what to go for first?

Here's an extract from an email I sent a friend who asked a similar question...after I recently took possession of a supercap.
Some preliminary info;I replaced a single hicap directly with a supercap, such that the supercap was only powering one input and the shorting plug was still in at the 82 end.
Then once another black snaic arrived I removed the 82 shorting plug and fired up both inputs of the 82 via the supercap.

"Yes... the supercap powering both sections of the 82 is substantially better,
1) Replace the hicap directly for the supercap...and you realise how veiled sounding the hicap is..
2) Supercap powering one section compared to supercap powering both...makes the one section sound disjointed and unmusical. Powering both sections...and you so rightly hinted does make the powering the one section of the 82 sound broken.
The powering the one section of the 82 sounds veiled, recessed sounding with a small amount of electronic glare to the sound. the bass is somewhat more rubbery/elastic and dominating in the music in comparison to the highs and mids.
Then power up both sections.....highs and mids suddenly gain scale(and consequently revealing sounds you've never really noticed forward into the mix of music)...the bass tightens up and sounds faster easier to follow/more rhymthic..the musical presentation is far more balanced.
Having heard a single hicap-dual powered supercapped 82...no I wouldn't go back to the hicap."
My 12 cents worth...a adjustment for inflation for the usual 10 cents worth...

I have (through previous ownership and over at a friends)tried the following flavours of 82-juice.

A. Powered directly from the 180.
B. Powered with a single Hicap/gray Snaic.
C. Powered with a single Hicap/black Snaic.
D. Powered with a single output of a Supercap/Black Snaic.
E. Powered with both outputs on the Supercap/Black Snaics x2.

Option A is really the only one that I found really difficult to listen to- the poise of an AnyCap powered 82 is relegated into a somewhat disjointed and unbalanced presentation when feeding of the rudimentary 24V supply from the 180 (yes I know it is supposed to be 'near' Flatcap quality).

Option B allows the 82 to breath with the music instead of to be stifled by it.

C. Adding the Black Snaic removes some rather unpleasant colorations, purifies the top end and redacts a certain measure of rhythmic smear.

D. Going to even a single output Supercap is bigger than any of the changes above. Yes, even-or maybe because of-utilizing 1/7 of its outputs the Supercap shows the Hicap to be rather sedate, lacking in air, transiently supressed and less lucid.

E. Moving to the dual supercap outputs was another suprising leap, taking all that was good in the single power output and to it adding greatly improved dynamics.

It is possible you know to use the 82 with TWO supercaps, in much the same fashion as it can be used with two hicaps. This option would place it above the level of the 52 in price and probably quite a bit below it in performance. The jump from the 82/SC to the 52/SC is an order of magnitude greater than between various ways of powering the 82. To hear a 52 immediately after playing a piece through an 82/SC is like hearing it for the first time. Really! On balance I would rather have a 52/140 than an 82/SC/2x135- and I have heard both.

In much the same way that (circa 1977 when the price differences were much closer than now) the argument was that any potential customer of a Rega 2 could afford a Rega 3, and any one who could afford a Rega 3 could afford a LP12; a good case can be made for potential de novo 82/SC owners stretching the relatively little extra (as compared to the returns) towards the 52/SC. I am sure this remains the same for the 282/Supercap2 vs the 252/Supercap2.

It is therefore rather disconcerting to find that the 552 soundly thrashes the 52 in every way in which the 52 betters the 82, and then by some again.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

Tauron, I suggest that you consider adding a second Hi-Cap to the 82 if the Scap is too big a leap financially. You will get a value for money upgrade and you will prolong the experience of climbing the ladder. I went from 72/Hi to 82/Hi to 82/Hi*2 to 82/Scap to 52/Scap and enjoyed the experience (and learned a lot) each time. Incidentally, the 2 Hi Caps are still in use for Prefix and Headline.

Buy the XPS first and then purchase the Supercap.

The XPS makes a huge difference in the sound of the CDX.

Regards

NB

Hi again Tauron

Sorry if I've given you a dilemma - I'll try and help you resolve it.

You're broadly happy with your system now - which is good. First thing you need to try and establish is whether you are trying to get to a particular level of performance or not. If you are willing/planning to keep investing in better kit because you have heard better systems and want it for yourself it doesn't matter too much - eventually you will get to where you want to be. In this case it's a simple choice of where to invest as your first step. If you are broadly happy with what you have and not on a mission to upgrade you just need to make sure that what you have is pleasing and well balanced.

My own view on what you have is that it is back end heavy - expensive and revealing speakers with expensive power amps but less investment in the source and pre-amp. If I were in your position and funds allowed I would probably be thinking about a CDS1/2/3 first (assuming you're not into vinyl). I would then get a SC for the 82 followed by a 52 if funds allowed.

I've not heard Mana under Briks but believe I am likely to think it very worthwhile (will try it under mine once I have a room I can use them in properly). It's a cheaper step, the only reservation I have is that if it works as well as claimed it will make a very revealing speaker even more so, thus showing up your front end.

It's not clear if you are thinking new or second hand but if you are buying new I would have thought a home dem of better CD player v SC on the 82 would be the thing to have.

Just to clarify my source first thinking: (my) LP12/52/250/Kans sounds way better than CDS2/552/500/Kans.


Regards
Steve

I've heard demonstrations of better source eg. CDS 2 and the 52 at naim demonstrations and didn't really feel that mine were inferior, maybe if they were slotted into my system I might change my mind.

I have found that the CDX is highly sensitive to placement. After much experimentation I have ended up with it on an RDC SPP Platform, using all four cones and this is on an extended standard quadrapire rack. This is housing the rest of the equipment both the 82 and XPS are on 4 aluminium nordost points; having tried them on 3 and found I lost some subtle detail. The 135's are on 3 RDC cones each; I found with 4 the shape of base notes was not as easy to grasp.

Incidentally I would be buying second hand so cannot really do a home dem. I also have a Lingo LP12, Ekos, Troika and find I get as much musical pleasure from the CDX but I do enjoy getting more out of the system if possible. (Have not yet got up the courage to do the Weekes mod on the Lingo so pull the plug when playing CD's).

At a recent Naim night in Cheadle one of the more significant jumps of the night was going 82/1*Hi to 82/SC. I have also gone 82/hi -> 82/2hi -> 82/SC and I did not experiance as large a step going to the SC as I hoped.

Of course in your position to add another Hi second hand is only £400 - £500 wheras adding a SC is £1200-£1400 (but sell your existing Hi and that makes £800-£1000. If you think you may go 52 sometime then getting a SC makes sense.

The answers to your original questions though are Yes and Yes.

I've always wondered why 1SC is better than 2*Hi as the SC transformer and Caps are only slightly bigger than those in the Hi, Adding 2*Hi and you have completely independent supplys for each section.

Call me a pedant but…
Thinking back to 1980 I can state categorically that as a Planar 3 owner, an LP12 was definitely NOT within my financial reach. If it had been then I wouldn’t have been a (very happy) Planar 3 owner.
I appreciate that in the USA the price difference may not have been so wide.

Best wishes
Harry

quote:

---

I appreciate that in the USA the price difference may not have been so wide.

---

I was actually basing that on UK prices. When I started looking towards purchasing my first audio system, in the UK (1977) the P2 was 80 pounds, the P3 100UKP and the LP12 180 UKP (without an arm). Many decent cassette decks back that cost more than the LP12 (The Aiwa AD1800, the Nak DT600 and above and the Sony TC177SD)which many people had no problems stretching to. Indeed I ended up with a very early Michell Focus One and the Aiwa cassette deck. In retrospect I should have gone for the LP12 and an entry level recording deck.

Ron
Dum spiro audio
Dum audio vivo

The supercap is worth the upgrade over the hicaps, as the 82 comes into its own with a supercap.

The 52 is another step up again, just more musical than the 82

AlexG..sorry I haven't been able to get back to you sooner.
The subsequent post did a magnificent job of answering.
In summary know you cannot use a super plus hicap, it's either one 82 shorting plug in and one super or one hi, 82 shorting plug out and one super or two hi's.
I only ran with the shorting plug for a period hence compared the super vs single hi due to the fact I was waiting for another black snaic to arrive to allow me to hook up both outputs of the super.
Two hi's vs one super....well I know for a fact the single output of the super is superior to a single hi....so I don't believe 2 hi's would be in the same league as one super, but as previously mentioned it equates to VFM...another hicap is a lot cheaper/less hassle than selling up and acquiring a super...if you do make sure you keep your black snaic...you'll need it for the super
Two supers run single output would be overkill and stoooooopidly expensive...much better with 52/Super.

Welcome ayisgroovy

"Funny phenomenon though since bringing in the Supercap, and that is louder volumes than I used to have befoe do not seem that intrusively loud!"
I believe it's not an uncommon finding, myself included. Could it be that the music is cleaner, has less distortion, and therefore is less "hurtful" to the ears?

"With the upgrade having such an impact, has anyone moved from 82/supercap to 52/supercap?"
Of course.

"If so, was it worthhile (bearing in mind cost) and by how much of a differnece was it in qualitative terms?"
Worthwhile? Yes, but perhaps dependent on depth of wallet. Qualitative terms? A much bigger improvement, for me, than 2*Hi-caps to supercap. If you think you've got authority, ease and transparency now, you ain't heard nothin' yet.