Smoking bans in public places - how are they doing?

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Originally posted by Trevor Newall:

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Originally posted by BrianD:
The fact that some won't smoke at home yet find it acceptable to smoke in public is something I find pretty mind-boggling.

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me too!
I wonder why that is.
perhaps they don't want to experience at home what non-smokers are forced to experience when out in public??
selfish? no, of course not!!

TN

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It's because some of us have deposits and NO SMOKING rented accomodation actually. I smoked like a chimney in my old flat.

Back to cars (briefly) - I believe the economy in the 1800s was pretty damn good. Oh yeah - no cars. Hmmm. If people were more RESPONSIBLE about where they lived they'd not need to use the old "I live in the country therefore I need a car" line. Farmers have tractors etc at their disposal - if they have to go to town they can go on one of those.

Exeter's public transport sucks, but I can make do because I have no choice. Like I say, if you couldn't afford to drive, I'm sure you'd find another way. Sure, trains and buses aren't as plentiful as they were (and are DEFINITLEY a real inconvenience as it stands), but if for some reason 90% of the cars had to be scrapped overnight, I bet you there's be a sudden demand for public transport and thus no need for those cars, once the government got off their (getting fatter on our taxes by the day) lazy arse and undoing the damage Beeching did in the 60s.

Taxis are public transport (of a kind) so they don't count as cars.

If all else fails, get off your arse and walk, or ride a bike. I'm sick of the pathetic bleating of "we need a car for this, that and the 2 second drive from one side of the road to the other".

Back to smoking - yeah, a pub is there to serve booze, but they ALL have fag machines as well, so they DO sell cigarettes. I remember a news report about a decade ago of a pub in Exeter (or SOMEWHERE in Devon) that was opening as non-smoking. I believe it went bust in a year...

Ventilation and segregation are the key. I have no problem with being lumped in with other diseased social lepers; had that all my life!

Mick - shell suits SUCK - I feel your pain. Are you sure you weren't in Liverpooooohl? Seriously though, most unemployed oiks are usually in Shipley's Amusements (or equivalent), putting all their dosh into the fruitys and whinging about not having any money.

My mate works in an arcade, and he sees this day in day out. IN fact, in his local, he used to have a married bum couple that would get a taxi to and from the pub, and stay there from opening to closing - and drinking the whole time. What they got in Benefits I have no idea, but they were CLEARLY taking the piss.

__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.

Whils't waiting at Barcelona airport last year on my way to Basel, Spanish cops & security were smoking fags all over the place, they weren't in Switzerland though, Oh No.


Fritz Von Goodpublicservantsthough

dom

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If all else fails, get off your arse and walk, or ride a bike.

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If people were more RESPONSIBLE about where they lived they'd not need to use the old "I live in the country therefore I need a car" line.

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Are you a WUM, or what?

Walking 20 miles to work never crossed my mind when I came here. What did cross my mind was to live nearer to where I work, but oh yeah, no rented accomodation, and the fact that a 1 bedroom flat near where I work costs over £120,000, made me think more about moving slightly further away and using my car. I need at least a 3 bedroom house. Cost me £275,000 as it is, nearer £400,000 close to work.

To walk to work I'd have to leave home 4 hours before I'm due to start, this for sometimes what is a 12 hour day. Well, why don't I just kip at work, not much point in coming home. 12 hour day, 4 hours there and 4 hours back. Why didn't I think of this earlier, it's obviously a brilliant idea?

You need to open your eyes to the reality, mate. Cars are a requirement for many people, smoking isn't. With a bit of will power you could all stop, the choice is an easy one and is affordable. It is also the correct one because the habit is disgusting. The choice to live near to where a person works isn't always easy and it certainly isn't always affordable for many.

Here's a suggestion. If you give me £100,000 I'll sell my house 20 miles from work and I'll buy a house 2 miles from work. I'll then sell my car. How does that sound to you?

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Spanish cops & security were smoking fags all over the place, they weren't in Switzerland though

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Well that's ok so long as they stay in Spain. I'd be very surprised if Spanish cops were smoking all over Switzerland, don't think it would go down well with the natives, like.

[This message was edited by BrianD on FRIDAY 27 February 2004 at 13:32.]

Well it is past friday lunchtime ) suppose and you are probably using your firm's time & money so why not ?

Fritz Von Therenarfbinsomecleverbastards

Graham Ricketts

Steven Toy said "So how many of the 3800 were passive smokers and didn't, say, strip asbestos for a living?"

Asbestos makes for an interesting comparison to passive smoking as its Relative Risk is 5.0. I.e. this stuff really is lethal and the case for banning is much more clear cut.

Trevor -- I understand why you find it so unpleasant (becuase it very obviously is) and I agree that in an ideal world you wouldn't have to be exposed to it and certainly that smokers should be a lot more considerate. My point is that given the current de facto situation where it is allowed and the fact that the freedom of choice works both ways so you need a good reason (health rather than personal distaste) to justifiy a ban.

To answer your question: I used to be a very heavy smoker but finally (and joyfully) managed to kick the habit on 09/11/2001 (World events rather overtook my triumph). If smoke drifts into my face I find it very unpleasant and will ask the person to stop or move but if I am in a pub full of smokers I barely notice it to be honest.

BrianD said "With a bit of will power you could all stop, the choice is an easy one and is affordable"

I can promise you that giving up smoking is anything but easy -- in fact (IIRC) its significantly more difficult that giving up Heroin for exmaple.

In statistical terms it about as difficult as *permenantly* losing a couple of stone.

Well it is past friday lunchtime I suppose and you are probably using your firm's time & money so why not ?

Fritz Von Therenarfbinsomecleverbastards

Join the Swiss Navy Now !!!

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Well that's ok so long as they stay in Spain. I'd be very surprised if Spanish cops were smoking all over Switzerland, don't think it would go down to well with the natives, like.

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To mark the authorities´ campaign to educate travelers, a Spanish newspaper interviewed an airport cop. He nonchalantly replied that, although smoking in the airport violated the law, his superior had never asked him to enforce it.

As is perfectly logical in Spain, he was smoking at the time.

Dom.
>It's because some of us have deposits and NO SMOKING rented accomodation actually. I smoked like a chimney in my old flat<

point taken, but I know plenty of smokers who don’t smoke at home because of not wanting their house smelling of stale fags nor their walls/paintwork/curtains, etc, nicotine stained.
they also don’t like inflicting their filthy habit on non-smoking members of the household.
if they smoke at home, they nick outside for a fag and then come back inside afterwards, or crucially, do all their smoking when out in public!!
double standards?
all I’m asking is that smokers extend the same consideration to others, and have the same values in public with regards to smoking as they do at home.
of course if you’re a “diseased social leper” living on his own, when at home you can do as you wish.

>Back to smoking - yeah, a pub is there to serve booze, but they ALL have fag machines as well, so they DO sell cigarettes. I remember a news report about a decade ago of a pub in Exeter (or SOMEWHERE in Devon) that was opening as non-smoking. I believe it went bust in a year...<

there may have been many reasons for that other than the non-smoking policy, or the non-smoking policy may have been poorly thought out and badly executed.
pubs, particularly in small rural areas, are sometimes as a much a social gathering place as they are a place to drink, and must cater for local demand.
if I were to open a non-smoking pub of my own, I’d be more inclined to do it in a major city or large town where it would serve a large cross section of people and therefore it’s survival would not be reliant on appeasing the needs of a small community.
my target customers would be people who appreciate sampling the best quality and widest range of beers/wine and food that I could provide.
people who enjoy eating and drinking in a spotlessly clean, fresh, environment, and most importantly where the service is as good as the beer/wine and the food.
the grubby, malodorous, nicotine-stained smoking mob would I’m sure find a hovel that caters for their needs.
Ha!

TN

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my target customers would be people who appreciate sampling the best quality and widest range of beers/wine and food that I could provide.

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The reminds me of a comment in Jancis Robinson´s (perhaps UK´s best know wine writer)abridged version of the Oxford Guide to Wine.

She remarked how bouquet is the most important aspect of wine tasting, and how she once had to suffer a host who smoked while the others attempted to enjoy a good wine. Naturally, this occured in a "southern European" country!

My last place of employ was about 5 miles away, which I walked to and fro from
daily, initially because I was skint and couldn't afford a bus pass (or prefered
to buy the occassional bottle of wine at weekends). My office stank of stale fag
smoke because all of my colleagues smoked like troopers, only outside of the
building, God only knows how many times a day. Winter was murder, as one could
only briefly open the windows, summer with all fans going and about 30 computers,
windows still stayed closed for better air movement, the stale fag smoke was
subsequently moved more efficiently too.
Berlin has a second to non Public
transport system (24 Hour) cheap and brilliantly efficient in ALL weathers, also
the City boasts numerous modern bike lanes, which are generally abused by
cyclists of all creeds and ages. I tend to walk everywhere now if I can, and
fitness, and being less fat through jogging etc, in between occassional pig-outs
(non munchy related) prove for better mental stability (that's another thread
innit) ? Bottom Line, Choice is there, take it or leave it, do something about
it, Don't blame others for your own pitfalls, easiest thing in the World innit,
and certainly doesn't become well educated Citizens of a Wonderful Continent
like Europe, or anywhere else for that matter.

Fritz Von Fuckyerselvesandsaveyermoney.

Trevor

"Back to smoking - yeah, a pub is there to serve booze, but they ALL have fag machines as well, so they DO sell cigarettes."

They all sell condoms as well but that doesn't mean it's acceptable for the couple next to me to start shagging across the bar. Although, since I don't imagine passive shagging is harmful to anybody, and I'm unlikely to end up with smelly clothes (not unless I'm standing in the wrong place) I'd probably object less to that than the stench of a burning Embassy billowing up my nose.

folks.
the burning question now is of course which thread will fritz choose to grace with his 1000th post?
and, perhaps more crucially, what on earth will it be about!!!
fritz, your audience awaits with bated breath.

TN

Matthew

I have never had a tab in my entire life. I have no idea how easy or how difficult it is to stop smoking. What I do know is that I have watched my mother stop more than a few times, only for her to start again each time for one reason or another. So, I've always imagined it to be quite difficult, however, something in this thread led me to believe that it is actually not that difficult.

On page 8 of this thread, here is my comment followed by your reply..

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BrianD: With a bit of will power you could all stop, the choice is an easy one and is affordable.
Matthew: I can promise you that giving up smoking is anything but easy -- in fact (IIRC) its significantly more difficult that giving up Heroin for exmaple.

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Now this strikes me as odd. The comment that made me believe it wasn't that difficult to stop smoking was on page 6, when YOU said...

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posted Thu 26 February 04 13:29
The physical addiction to smoking is laughably minor. Nicotine withdrawal can be likened to a constant feeling of slight peckishness.

Of course smokers have a vested interest in talking up this side of it.

Matthew

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I will let others figure out what might be going on here because I can't work it out.

tom.
that wasn't my quote.
I agree with you, though!!

TN

brian.
perhaps matthew is differentiating between the physical and emotional effect of smoking addiction?

TN

Trevor

Aye.

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Originally posted by BrianD:
dom

Are you a WUM, or what?

You need to open your eyes to the reality, mate. Cars are a requirement for many people, smoking isn't. The choice to live near to where a person works isn't always easy and it certainly isn't always affordable for many.

Here's a suggestion. If you give me £100,000 I'll sell my house 20 miles from work and I'll buy a house 2 miles from work. I'll then sell my car. How does that sound to you?

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What's a WUM?

I'm partially sighted, so I can't see with my eyes open

If *I* can use a bike and public transport, anyone can. You do have a choice if you live in the sticks - change jobs or where you live. Believe you me if I had 100 grand I'd not be worrying about cars 'cos I'd never have to battle the bloody things to get to work.

I KNOW that not everyone can give up their car, but when you live one side of an average town and your job's the other, that's what - 5 miles max. That's an hour's walk for someone who's in condition. And probably almost as quick as driving in rush hour. I can walk to work faster than it takes to get the bus there. So anyone who only works and lives in the same town is BLATANTLY copping out trying to use the time worn crappy excuses on me.

I've had to deal with virtually NO money for fun in my life due to having to rent near work. It's a fact of life. In a lot of cases, there's NO NEED for people to be in work at all - I for example could do my job FAR more efficiently at home, in a better environment, and on a 3 year old PC that's faster and more reliable than this 6 month old works one. Plus no boss staring over you all day, no stupid annoying work phones going off all around you, and you can listen to music!

Social interaction happens in the evening - colleagues are just people you're lumped together with. It's not my job to socialise at work, so I'd quite happily work from home. You can't even date at work now without the fear of sexual harrassment claims or the sack, so that's the only other reason for being in the office written off.

Work from home, ditch the car, and taa daa - more money, better health, and a longer lie in.

People always shout at me for my views because they've never even BOTHERED to think of an alternative, since turning your car key doesn't tax your brain, and "everyone else does it" - way too selfish and unimaginative I'm afraid, and no, my views on this aren't leniant.

Seriously, you're going to tell me that when petrol's £15 a litre (not THAT far away at the rate things are going) you'll still be happy to have the false economy of saving money on your accommodation? Think about it...

Finally - driving a car is a choice, just like smoking. If you were unable to drive a car, you'd automatically have your location/job/accommodation choices dictated to you, so driving is also a privilege. And a choice. OH - did I mention it's a choice?

Just like having kids and thus neccessetating the need for a large expensive house.

BTW - these aren't in any way personal snipes, BrianD, just observations on "normal" people.

4x4 school runs and 1 occupant gas guzzling company cars are the reason I loathe the modern car culture. People with large families or in the country of course DO need transport; that's what the farm landrover and the SMART car and the mini are for - why some people need a 5litre Humvy-styled vehicle to take their obese child to school, for example, is beyond me. Cars do NOT need more than 1litre engines.

So IMHO drivers in the main are every bit as irresponsible, smelly and selfish as us smokers...

__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.

It was a bloody close shave though.

Fritz Von Piratesabound
Smelly even !

dom

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If *I* can use a bike and public transport, anyone can. You do have a choice if you live in the sticks - change jobs or where you live.

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I don't live out in the sticks. I just live where I can afford and that's 20 miles from where I work. And there is NO public transport that can get me to work. None. Zero. It is not possible.

Before I moved to Yorkshire I lived in the Midlands. There was 1 bus per day to the area where I worked and 1 bus back. Using that bus would have made my day 14 hours long instead of 8. Now you may say that's ok, but this was a 17 miles distance and I'm not going to walk it. I am also not going to want to turn an normal working day into almost twice as long, so I had a car.

Believe me, I can't stand driving, I detest other motorists for over-taking me on the inside, driving at 100mph 'cos they think they're good drivers, talking on their mobile phones while they drive, speeding at 60mph past a school etc etc etc. I'd love to not have to own a car, but it is not possible for me and it's not possible for many other people, I imagine.

Sorry Dom but I think you've got your head up your arse on this one. Quite rightly you detest the 4x4 kiddie run (we live near a primary school so I'm only too aware of the effects these ridiculous things have in a small town) but then then go on to denigrate virtually all drivers because of this. A bit of an over-simplification don't you think. And if you really think that everybody can choose where to work or live as easily as this, or that everybody is in a position to walk an hour each way to work then I agree with BrianD that you really need to pay a visit to the real world. On foot of course.

dom

Just noticed this bit as well....

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so driving is also a privilege.

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I am on a 3 year medically restricted driving license. This happened to me only last October. I know full well that driving is a privilage. Had I lost my license last year I frankly don't know what I would have done.

Edited to correct ridiculous typo.

Just because an individual does not have direct access himself to private transport (through no fault of his own) is not a reason to want to deny that access to everyone else.

Where public transport is a viable alternative to the car I am mor than happy to use it. As for not smoking on public transport it makes no difference to me as I don't smoke in the car. However:

Long-haul flights - alcohol = boredom.

Long-haul flights + alcohol - cigarettes = frustration.



Regards,

Steve.

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Long-haul flights + alcohol - cigarettes = frustration.

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Long-haul flights + alcohol + cigarettes = misery for everybody else.

Ah cigarette smoking on airplanes - doesn't that deserve a whole thread to itself?