Police priorities – can someone explain them to me?
Posted by: jcs_smith on 01 November 2006
This morning my wife set off to take our 10 month old little boy to nursery. She’d managed to get about 300 yards when a moron in a Range Rover ran into the back of a Corsa. She called me in near hysterics to tell me that she was being attacked by this guy so I told her to get in the car, lock the doors and call the police. I set off running round the corner to find a guy, standing about 6 ft 4 and weighting about 18 stone pounding on the roof while my 5 ft 2 wife was cowering inside and a crowd of around 10 onlookers watched from the other side of the road. Mindful of the fact that there were witnesses and the police were on their way I shouted at the guy to leave her alone and when he attacked me I clinched, head butted him, punched him in the throat, squeezed his testicles very hard and pinged his head off the car roof a couple of times. I then put him a rear naked choke (headlock) and took him down to his knees. Obviously no-one helped, although I was careful to watch out for any of his friends who might care to join in. Fortunately no-one did. But my question is this: if a near hysterical woman with a screaming baby calls the police and says that she is being attacked by a huge guy intent on roadrage how long should it take for them to turn up. Because 8 hours later we’re still waiting.
I held that guy in that position for nearly 20 minutes before I decided to give up and let him run away. Comforting my wife and baby was more important than causing him pain, but god I was tempted.
I held that guy in that position for nearly 20 minutes before I decided to give up and let him run away. Comforting my wife and baby was more important than causing him pain, but god I was tempted.
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by Stephen B
I'd complain to the police if I were you. I'd want a very good explanation why they didn't show.
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by Rasher
What a terrible experience for you & your family. You have my sincere sympathy.
Today we hear of the verdict in a court case where a family (woman & 3 children) have been murdered in a house fire by a guy released half way through a 7 year sentence for murder of another woman. I expect he will be out again in another 3 years to do it again.
It is a dreadful thought that the public will eventually take matters into their own hands, but it will come in the absence of an effective police force & justice system. It is very close now. Do take the matter to your MP at least.
Today we hear of the verdict in a court case where a family (woman & 3 children) have been murdered in a house fire by a guy released half way through a 7 year sentence for murder of another woman. I expect he will be out again in another 3 years to do it again.
It is a dreadful thought that the public will eventually take matters into their own hands, but it will come in the absence of an effective police force & justice system. It is very close now. Do take the matter to your MP at least.
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by Simon Perry
I'd be very interested to hear how your case turns out. It is lucky you are at least able (more than able by the sound of it) to defend yourself against such a moron. I am only sorry that you did not get the chance to inflict greater injury to him. He has committed a criminal offence and part of the problem is unless you push it with the police they will just want to give him a warning.
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by Stephen Tate
quote:Originally posted by Simon Perry:
I'd be very interested to hear how your case turns out. It is lucky you are at least able (more than able by the sound of it) to defend yourself against such a moron. I am only sorry that you did not get the chance to inflict greater injury to him. He has committed a criminal offence and part of the problem is unless you push it with the police they will just want to give him a warning.
Well yes... but on the other token this nasty person could/can press charges for GBH because they was attacked by someone who understandably recklessly defended themselves, especially if there were witnesses.
The law is an ass.
If the matter needs to be taken seriously - Get a solicitor or go to your local police station.
regards
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by DIL
quote:Originally posted by jcs_smith:
... and when he attacked me ...
So how far can one go in self defence? Is this a clear cut thing or does it 'depend' on the exact circumstances?
/dl
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by MichaelC
And we wonder why the police get a bad press...
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by joe90
quote:when he attacked me I clinched, head butted him, punched him in the throat, squeezed his testicles very hard and pinged his head off the car roof a couple of times. I then put him a rear naked choke (headlock) and took him down to his knees...8 hours later we’re still waiting (for the cops)
Wow.
You could look at this situation two ways:
1) The cops suck.
2) you got to dish out the beats to an idiot who desparately needed it and got away with it.
I'd go with 2) and put the first one down to 'there's never a cop round when you need one...'
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by Bruce Woodhouse
Forgive me folks.
I may have missed something. What criminal offence did the big guy commit? Did he actually assault your wife? Did he assault you when you arrived-that is before you head butted him?
A horrible event, and the non-attendance of the Police is clearly an issue. Your wife must have been terrified. However my experiences (and training) about dealing with agression and violence would suggest that your approach (understandable though it may have been) was more likely to increase the risk of somebody being badly hurt.
I'm not being soft here but I think you can (and indeed I have on several occasions) deal with an angry individual in a very different manner.
Bruce
I may have missed something. What criminal offence did the big guy commit? Did he actually assault your wife? Did he assault you when you arrived-that is before you head butted him?
A horrible event, and the non-attendance of the Police is clearly an issue. Your wife must have been terrified. However my experiences (and training) about dealing with agression and violence would suggest that your approach (understandable though it may have been) was more likely to increase the risk of somebody being badly hurt.
I'm not being soft here but I think you can (and indeed I have on several occasions) deal with an angry individual in a very different manner.
Bruce
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by Simon Perry
quote:I shouted at the guy to leave her alone and when he attacked me
Probably a public disorder offence at a minimum
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by jcs_smith
quote:Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
Forgive me folks.
I may have missed something. What criminal offence did the big guy commit? Did he actually assault your wife? Did he assault you when you arrived-that is before you head butted him?
A horrible event, and the non-attendance of the Police is clearly an issue. Your wife must have been terrified. However my experiences (and training) about dealing with agression and violence would suggest that your approach (understandable though it may have been) was more likely to increase the risk of somebody being badly hurt.
I'm not being soft here but I think you can (and indeed I have on several occasions) deal with an angry individual in a very different manner.
Bruce
Des-escalation is a concept that I am very familiar with - it is a significant part of my job. I don't like violence so whenever possible I will avoid or prevent it. Normally in this case I would have expected that fronting the guy would have cooled the situation. Most people like that are just venting and will calm down before any damage is caused. However sometimes this is not the case and in some situation some people just want to cause pain to whoever gets in their way. In this case he picked on the wrong person and it was him.
I have discussed this with several of my instructors and colleagues and they came to the conclusion that the only thing I could have done better was to have dropped him from a distance with a front kick rather than clinching. I chose to clinch because I did not want to appear to be the most aggressive and also if he had a gun it is easier to handle at close quarters. However from a more remote distance there’s less risk of close up damage and it’s easier to handle if he has a knife.
As to what offence had he caused? Well I always thought threatening behaviour is a criminal offence as is behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by Bruce Woodhouse
quote:As to what offence had he caused? Well I always thought threatening behaviour is a criminal offence as is behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace
Fair enough. I wonder if you'd have handled the situation differently as a bystander rather than a 'husband'? I suspect that would be true for me anyway.
I'm not really knocking, just making the point that agression can be handled in different ways.
Bruce
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by andy c
Ok,
I'll stick me neck out...
1. The attendance of the police in this issue, based on these facts alone, leaves a bit to be desired. However, it will be interesting to see the full incident log - go and ask to speak to the station inspector and ask for an investigation as to what happened and why, you are entitield to know. Oh, and don't come back with some crap about you won't find out because this type of complaint will be recorded etc...
2. In relation to self defence, the CPS initially would decide if there were a case to answer, due to the obvious level of injuries caused - then it would be for a court to decide on the plea of self defence
3. If you think you should be allowed to dispense justice, and the law back 'that' up, then in those circs IMO the law would indeed be an ass!
Please note I am not commenting on this particular incident, as I am not in full posession of the facts.
andy c!
I'll stick me neck out...
1. The attendance of the police in this issue, based on these facts alone, leaves a bit to be desired. However, it will be interesting to see the full incident log - go and ask to speak to the station inspector and ask for an investigation as to what happened and why, you are entitield to know. Oh, and don't come back with some crap about you won't find out because this type of complaint will be recorded etc...
2. In relation to self defence, the CPS initially would decide if there were a case to answer, due to the obvious level of injuries caused - then it would be for a court to decide on the plea of self defence
3. If you think you should be allowed to dispense justice, and the law back 'that' up, then in those circs IMO the law would indeed be an ass!
Please note I am not commenting on this particular incident, as I am not in full posession of the facts.
andy c!
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by jcs_smith
Well I'm sure I would. If I had been a bystander I think I would have done what all the other bystanders did and not got involved. Shameful to admit I know. If I had been handling it professionally I would probably have had backup so I would have tried to be more circumspect. On my own I think I would have just dropped him.
Oh by the way the police finally called 14 hors later to see what happened. We got a very grudging apology but I'm not sure if that's because we had talked to some police friends about it. Incidentally they said they would have hit him on the legs with their asps to disable him and taken him to the floor and handcuffed him or used pepper spray.
Oh by the way the police finally called 14 hors later to see what happened. We got a very grudging apology but I'm not sure if that's because we had talked to some police friends about it. Incidentally they said they would have hit him on the legs with their asps to disable him and taken him to the floor and handcuffed him or used pepper spray.
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by JonR
Bruce,
Doubtless you missed the bit in jcs_smith's opening post when he said:-
This suggests that, if the above is an accurate description of events, the guy made as if to attack him first, and that all that jcs was doing was defending himself, whilst trying to show necessary restraint, whilst protecting his wife and child and in expectation that the police would show up in short order.
I don't wish violence on anyone but I must admit there are times when I wish I was as capable as jcs obviously is, but frankly I am not - which is probably just as well!
The incident kind of reminds me of when I was mugged on a busy street in Camden in broad daylight one morning a couple of years ago. Everyone was walking past minding their own business, whilst this guy threatened to hurt me unless I gave him some money. I remember standing there being absolutely scared shitless. Eventually he took my wallet and ran off. Naturally he was never found and I had the hassle of a two-week wait for a new set of credit/debit cards.
The important thing, though, from my point of view, was that I was unharmed. But what really pissed me off was that just 24 hours later that same stretch of pavement was teaming with countless community support officers, the like of which could not be seen for dust just a day earlier!
In fact it still angers me every time I see one now!
quote:Forgive me folks.
I may have missed something. What criminal offence did the big guy commit?
Doubtless you missed the bit in jcs_smith's opening post when he said:-
quote:Mindful of the fact that there were witnesses and the police were on their way I shouted at the guy to leave her alone and when he attacked me I [..]
This suggests that, if the above is an accurate description of events, the guy made as if to attack him first, and that all that jcs was doing was defending himself, whilst trying to show necessary restraint, whilst protecting his wife and child and in expectation that the police would show up in short order.
I don't wish violence on anyone but I must admit there are times when I wish I was as capable as jcs obviously is, but frankly I am not - which is probably just as well!
The incident kind of reminds me of when I was mugged on a busy street in Camden in broad daylight one morning a couple of years ago. Everyone was walking past minding their own business, whilst this guy threatened to hurt me unless I gave him some money. I remember standing there being absolutely scared shitless. Eventually he took my wallet and ran off. Naturally he was never found and I had the hassle of a two-week wait for a new set of credit/debit cards.
The important thing, though, from my point of view, was that I was unharmed. But what really pissed me off was that just 24 hours later that same stretch of pavement was teaming with countless community support officers, the like of which could not be seen for dust just a day earlier!
In fact it still angers me every time I see one now!
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by Bruce Woodhouse
quote:Incidentally they said they would have hit him on the legs with their asps to disable him and taken him to the floor and handcuffed him or used pepper spray.
Yes, and (sorry Andy C) some of the situations I deal with have been made worse by the police doing just this. Not applicable to all officers I'd say, mostly the inexperienced and the frightened. I work with the Police with patients/prisoners in custody. I am also very aware that individuals spit bile and fury at the police but smile benignly at a bloke with glasses and a doctor's bag....
quote:Well I'm sure I would. If I had been a bystander I think I would have done what all the other bystanders did and not got involved. Shameful to admit I know.
Curiously, as a certified coward I think I'd be more likely to get involved if I could do so positively as a bystander, and more frightened if I was 'involved'.
Were you injured when he attacked you-if so the Police issue is surely worth pursuing harder?
Bruce
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by jcs_smith
quote:Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
Were you injured when he attacked you-if so the Police issue is surely worth pursuing harder?
Bruce
Well I did lose 2 buttons off my shirt.
Realistically though I was very shakey for a few hours after and my shoulders were a bit stiff. Probably the after effects of the adrenaline dump
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by andy c
quote:Well I did lose 2 buttons off my shirt.
Mmm....
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by Bruce Woodhouse
GBH- Grevious Button Harm?
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by PatG
Hi JCS
A few questions.
Where there people in the crowd that you knew who could provide evidence as to what happened.
Did anyone take any pictures of the incident using mobile phones etc?
Assuming the attacker was driving the Range rover car, did you get the reg number? (or how was the Corsa and Range rover linked to the incident)?
Did the crowd stay there for the full 20 mins?
What did the guy say to you for the 20 mins you had him in a head lock?
Would you recognise him again? Is he a local? What accent? Would he have needed hospital treatment?
You sound like a trained martial art expert?
Need to fill in the picture a bit more. Thanks P
A few questions.
Where there people in the crowd that you knew who could provide evidence as to what happened.
Did anyone take any pictures of the incident using mobile phones etc?
Assuming the attacker was driving the Range rover car, did you get the reg number? (or how was the Corsa and Range rover linked to the incident)?
Did the crowd stay there for the full 20 mins?
What did the guy say to you for the 20 mins you had him in a head lock?
Would you recognise him again? Is he a local? What accent? Would he have needed hospital treatment?
You sound like a trained martial art expert?
Need to fill in the picture a bit more. Thanks P
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by andy c
quote:What did the guy say to you for the 20 mins you had him in a head lock?
Indeed - I'll bet you had a dab on keeping someone restrained in that way for that length of time?
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by jcs_smith
quote:Originally posted by PatG:
Hi JCS
A few questions.
Where there people in the crowd that you knew who could provide evidence as to what happened.
Did anyone take any pictures of the incident using mobile phones etc?
Assuming the attacker was driving the Range rover car, did you get the reg number? (or how was the Corsa and Range rover linked to the incident)?
Did the crowd stay there for the full 20 mins?
What did the guy say to you for the 20 mins you had him in a head lock?
Would you recognise him again? Is he a local? What accent? Would he have needed hospital treatment?
You sound like a trained martial art expert?
Need to fill in the picture a bit more. Thanks P
I recognised some of the people watching because it was just around the corner. Whether or not they would be willing to get involved is another question
NOt sure if anyone took any photos
I got the number. My wife is a bit shakey on this so it's possible she may have slihghtly cut him up. Don't know, wasn't there to see it but he ran into the back of her car. Surprising little damage to either car considering.
I would recognise him again. I'm sure he didn't need hospital treatment. He would have beenvery sore below though.
I have trained in (chronologically) Choy Li Fut (a hard southern style of Kung fu,) Sombo (Russian form of judo,) Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, boxing, Muay Thai (Thai kick boxing,) Savate (French kick boxing,) Escrima (Filipino stick fighting) and Krav Maga(Israeli self defense.) Krav is easily the best form of self protection and I would recommend it to anyone. My wife unfortunately refused to learn it she believed the propaganada that because she had studied body combat (a sort of Tae Bo or boxercise) she could look after herself. She's going to learn Krav now.
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by jcs_smith
quote:Originally posted by andy c:quote:What did the guy say to you for the 20 mins you had him in a head lock?
A lot of pointless threats about ripping my head off followed by incesssant whining.
Indeed - I'll bet you had a dab on keeping someone restrained in that way for that length of time?
Tank Abbott used to say that he got hard from beating people up. Doesn't do it for me fortunately
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by jcs_smith:
[QUOTE]
Des-escalation is a concept that I am very familiar with - it is a significant part of my job. I don't like violence so whenever possible I will avoid or prevent it.
Nonesense. Who are you trying to kid? You cant even spell de-escalation and you obviously know nothing about. You love violence. Your punch to the throat could have killed the man.
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by jcs_smith
If I'd hit him hard enough it mightbut it was more a gentle snap to make him start moving backwards
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by PatG
quote:Originally posted by acad tsunami:quote:Originally posted by jcs_smith:
[QUOTE]
Des-escalation is a concept that I am very familiar with - it is a significant part of my job. I don't like violence so whenever possible I will avoid or prevent it.
Nonesense. Who are you trying to kid? You cant even spell de-escalation and you obviously know nothing about. You love violence. Your punch to the throat could have killed the man.
From what JCS had sais so far, I believe that he acted in a very reasonable and professional fashion. It woud appear that the system has let him and his family down. If our law & justice systems worked (as they should) we would not all need to be able to use self protecion skills just so as to stay alive. The fact that JCS was in a position to use his training to prevent a situation getting completely out of control (and the aggressor having his way) is to his credit.
It would appear that JCS observed the situation, decided how it could be handled without becoming emotionally involved (despite his loved ones being under threat) and then proceeded to restrain the individual.
Good luck to you, JCS. Im sure your wife and kid were glad you came to their rescue.
Regards P