Legal procrastination
Posted by: scipio2 on 06 January 2007
A muslim fanatic has been found guilty of inciting murder and mayhem in the London 'Danish cartoon' protest but will not be sentenced until April. Why not just deport him to an Islamic country and be done with it?
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by wellyspyder
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Acad,
You made an utterly outragous allegation about the USA and Israel. (not for the first time - and no, I won't provide exact quotes etc etc).
"Maybe the Americans should stop funding Israel to the tune of £15million per day to buy US arms to bomb children in Lebanon and tanks to demolish houses in Gaza and bullets to shoot women in the back "
You have had to back-down from this ridiculous position into which you put yourself.
I made a straight forwardward statement of my impression-
"You seem to have absolute hatred for Bush and Blair and many of the values that the "West" holds dear. Of course I could be wrong on one or all of these counts and would happily stand corrected."
which is pretty obvious based on the tone of virtually everything you say in these threads, but I provided you the courtesy to rectify the impression you so often give.
You provided an assurance that you do not absolutely hate either Bush or Blair nor do you hate western values. I accepted your assurance on these matters, as I said I would.
There is no cop-out and no need for a cop-out. The principal point is, you have had to back-down from your initial outragous allegations.
Cheers
Don
Don, it is pointless pursuing this. Acad probably does not know that America no longer is a significant contributor to Isreal's economy. Sure, the American Administration has always taken a laid back attitude towards percieved Isreali actions/indercretions and will undoubtly continue to do so. After all isn't that what allies do? rightly or wrongly!
You have to understand that not only is there propaganda in the "west" but there is also "brainwashing" in the "east". Presumably this is where Acad has been misled. If I am wrong, then I stand corrected.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by long-time-dead
Maybe Acad does indeed have a point.
If we shipped all the Christian criminals from our country to Israel/Palestine then our economy could flourish as a result of the saving.....
If we shipped all the Christian criminals from our country to Israel/Palestine then our economy could flourish as a result of the saving.....
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by scipio2
Acad appears to be one of those 'moderate' muslims who tacitly condone, by making excuses for, the deadly antics of the more fanatic followers of the 'prophet'.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by long-time-dead:
Maybe Acad does indeed have a point.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by long-time-dead:
Maybe Acad does indeed have a point.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by Malky
[QUOTE]Originally posted by scipio2:
Acad appears to be one of those 'moderate' muslims who tacitly condone, by making excuses for, the deadly antics of the more fanatic followers of the 'prophet'.
What a crock of Islamophobic shit. Are you, by any chance, a 'moderate' Christian who tacitly condones the fanatical born-again Christian in the white House?
Acad appears to be one of those 'moderate' muslims who tacitly condone, by making excuses for, the deadly antics of the more fanatic followers of the 'prophet'.
What a crock of Islamophobic shit. Are you, by any chance, a 'moderate' Christian who tacitly condones the fanatical born-again Christian in the white House?
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by acad tsunami
Scipio,
What evidence is there for this deeply unintelligent comment?
'Acad appears to be one of those 'moderate' muslims who tacitly condone, by making excuses for, the deadly antics of the more fanatic followers of the 'prophet''.
It is difficult to imagine a more moronic statment. Show me where I have condoned the antics of Islamic fanatics. Show me where I have made excuses for their actions. You can't. So wind your neck in you deeply ignorant little twit.
For the record - I am not not now nor have I ever ben a muslim of any type and nor will I ever be - in fact I do not even believe in God nor will I ever believe in God. I am as far from being a muslim as it is possible to be. I have read the Koran and it is as full of nonesense as the bible is. Even if I were marooned on a dessert island with nothing ever to read except the Koran (or bible)I would use the pages to wipe my backside without the slightest speck of guilt.
I do however have some muslim friends and they are good people. I have Jewish friends too and they are also good people and they are as appalled by the actions of Israel and the US as I am. I have Christian friends and Buddhist friends and hindu friends and they are all good people.
If I say that the US gives billions to Israel it is because I know it to be a fact. If anyone wants to contradict anything I say (ever) then do so with evidence not mere bigoted opinion. I am always ready to back up my views with facts. If I criticise Israel or the US/UK for occupying Arab lands it does not make me a muslim and nor does it mean I approve of terrorist activity (by either side). I dont support violence ever - not even in defence - I am a pacifist.
What evidence is there for this deeply unintelligent comment?
'Acad appears to be one of those 'moderate' muslims who tacitly condone, by making excuses for, the deadly antics of the more fanatic followers of the 'prophet''.
It is difficult to imagine a more moronic statment. Show me where I have condoned the antics of Islamic fanatics. Show me where I have made excuses for their actions. You can't. So wind your neck in you deeply ignorant little twit.
For the record - I am not not now nor have I ever ben a muslim of any type and nor will I ever be - in fact I do not even believe in God nor will I ever believe in God. I am as far from being a muslim as it is possible to be. I have read the Koran and it is as full of nonesense as the bible is. Even if I were marooned on a dessert island with nothing ever to read except the Koran (or bible)I would use the pages to wipe my backside without the slightest speck of guilt.
I do however have some muslim friends and they are good people. I have Jewish friends too and they are also good people and they are as appalled by the actions of Israel and the US as I am. I have Christian friends and Buddhist friends and hindu friends and they are all good people.
If I say that the US gives billions to Israel it is because I know it to be a fact. If anyone wants to contradict anything I say (ever) then do so with evidence not mere bigoted opinion. I am always ready to back up my views with facts. If I criticise Israel or the US/UK for occupying Arab lands it does not make me a muslim and nor does it mean I approve of terrorist activity (by either side). I dont support violence ever - not even in defence - I am a pacifist.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Acad,
[QUOTE]
You made an utterly outragous allegation about the USA and Israel. (not for the first time - and no, I won't provide exact quotes etc etc).
"Maybe the Americans should stop funding Israel to the tune of £15million per day to buy US arms to bomb children in Lebanon and tanks to demolish houses in Gaza and bullets to shoot women in the back "
You have had to back-down from this ridiculous position into which you put yourself.
Wanna bet?
US Aid: The Lifeblood of Occupation
U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact
Gaza women killed in mosque siege
If you think the BBC is making it up you can watch the video Here
I could sit here posting links to stuff like this all day. I will back down from nothing. I await your quotes and evidence. Be sure I won't be holding my breath. Quotes and evidence will not be forthcoming for there are none. You know it and I know it. I await your next excuse.
If you have the stomach for it then click on this link and see what is done in your name and in the name of 'western values' but be warned this website is not for the feint hearted. If it upsets you too much go and check your Naim kit is where you left it, check the logo lights are still on, give the boxes a wipe over with a duster and tell yourself all is well with the world.
Unspeakable grief and horror
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Malky:
[QUOTE]
What a crock of Islamophobic shit.
Indeed.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by bornwina
Acad - you state your position is that of non religeous pacifist yet your focus seems only to be the wrongs of the West.
Don provided an opportunity for you to provide your analysis of the aims of certain of the 'less savoury' elements of the muslim world. Your glib responce was simply "they are not the main problem" (the main problem to a bereaved New Yorker I dare say)
As a stated non religeous pacifist, why not for example and for balance provide us with a link to footage of people throwing themselves out of the world trade centre, or people with their faces burnt off in the London Underground bombings? Were you to do this then I feel you would come across with more credibility and rather less of the overpoliticised radical muslim 'undergraduate' stance you seem to adopt.
Don provided an opportunity for you to provide your analysis of the aims of certain of the 'less savoury' elements of the muslim world. Your glib responce was simply "they are not the main problem" (the main problem to a bereaved New Yorker I dare say)
As a stated non religeous pacifist, why not for example and for balance provide us with a link to footage of people throwing themselves out of the world trade centre, or people with their faces burnt off in the London Underground bombings? Were you to do this then I feel you would come across with more credibility and rather less of the overpoliticised radical muslim 'undergraduate' stance you seem to adopt.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by Roy T
If I may I'd like to echo the above posting from bornwina and add a link to some words from The Bishop of Rochester, Michael Nazir-Ali who makes a point that
and this dogmatic stance is exacty what some no-muslims find rather hard to follow. I feel that this also ilustrates a reason just why the court case mentioned in the first post was decided by a jury in the way it was.quote:Mr Nazir-Ali argued it would never be possible to satisfy all of the demands made by Muslims because "their complaint often boils down to the position that it is always right to intervene when Muslims are victims... and always wrong when Muslims are the oppressors or terrorists".
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by Malky
A Christian bishop is, perhaps, not best placed to comment on matters of hypocrisy. War is not a clean and healthy pursuit. Atrocities are committed by both sides. However, Israel, as the biggest recpient of US aid in the world, and the violence it has inflicted on the Palestinians, is completely disproportionate. I am in no way advocating the barbaric world view of Al-Quaeda but am equally disgusted by the reactionary world view of Bush and the violence he has inflicted on the world. Bush and Blair know the invasion of Iraq was a complete disaster, even if they will not admit this in public. Therefore they hype up the notion of 'radical Islam' to justify their violent Imperialism. It becomes implicit that Islam is inherently violent and irrational, that it represents some sort of medaeval world view and cannot be judged on the same terms as Christianity.
It is not. It is, like all religions, contradictory and open to various interpretation
It is not. It is, like all religions, contradictory and open to various interpretation
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by Roy T
quote:A Christian bishop is, perhaps, not best placed to comment on matters of hypocrisy.
I do feel that his pont about Muslim hypocrisy is spot on and the finger of hypocrisy can indeed be directed in many directions as I am sure someone will point out sometime soon.
A lot has been made about the USA and other supplying arms aid and the like to Israel has anyone been able to find a figure of arms sales to say Saudi, The Gulf State and Pakistan? IIRC the three states mentioned have rather a large arms trade with the USA, UK and they might well be indulging in arms for oil swaps with China and others. I expect that the flow opf arms to the Middle East is not quite as one sided as one might expect from reading this thread.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by scipio2
quote:Originally posted by Malky:
No. I am not in favour of, nor do I make excuses for, any religious fanatics of any creed or flavour. Nor do I have to resort to scatological terminology to express my views.
What a crock of Islamophobic shit. Are you, by any chance, a 'moderate' Christian who tacitly condones the fanatical born-again Christian in the white House?
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by Don Atkinson
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Acad,
[QUOTE]
You made an utterly outragous allegation about the USA and Israel. (not for the first time - and no, I won't provide exact quotes etc etc).
"Maybe the Americans should stop funding Israel to the tune of £15million per day to buy US arms to bomb children in Lebanon and tanks to demolish houses in Gaza and bullets to shoot women in the back "
You have had to back-down from this ridiculous position into which you put yourself.
Acad,
You have deliberately missed the point, yet again. Let me patiently assist.....
I am not quibbling abount the £15m. I am pointing out, yet again, that the money wasn't specfically allocated to bomb children in Lebanon or to shoot women in the back.
You have already had to back down from what is clearly a rediculous allegation.
Your credibility as a voice of moderation is shattered and is irretrievable.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by u5227470736789439
Surely the US has the option not to sell military hardware to a country like Isreal which seems to make a huge number of collateral mistakes with civilians in its attampts to kill its terroristic enemies?
I think the wording of "collateral mistakes" rather tends to underplays the fact that they seem unable to differentiate in any meaningful way between their military targets, and civilian populations, and the killing of these...
Such indescriminate behaviour is common-place in terroristic activities, but one might hope and even expect better from a democratic nation, with some pretence to civilised values. No one doubts that the terrorists are just that, "terrorists," the scum of the Earth in their vile ways, but Isreal seems close to using the very methods of its enemies, these very terroists. One could find one's sympathy towards the Jews somewhat diminished over time by the action of these certain Zionists, though that would be unfair, and I do not. I actually have no more time for the mad Zionists than the mad terrorists. The danger for the Jews is that will all be tarred with the same brush in time, and that would be a dreadful outcome, as the history of the last century should already have taught us.
It could happen a again, and Isreal is seemingly doing its best to guarantee it. Though the UK did some pretty rough things in the name of defeating the IRA, it methods were so much less of a blunt instrument approach than what Isreal is doing. Doing it with huge a incompetence, and no regard for the future settlement that must come in time, or even the damage done Internationally to the eventual possible standing of their State.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I think the wording of "collateral mistakes" rather tends to underplays the fact that they seem unable to differentiate in any meaningful way between their military targets, and civilian populations, and the killing of these...
Such indescriminate behaviour is common-place in terroristic activities, but one might hope and even expect better from a democratic nation, with some pretence to civilised values. No one doubts that the terrorists are just that, "terrorists," the scum of the Earth in their vile ways, but Isreal seems close to using the very methods of its enemies, these very terroists. One could find one's sympathy towards the Jews somewhat diminished over time by the action of these certain Zionists, though that would be unfair, and I do not. I actually have no more time for the mad Zionists than the mad terrorists. The danger for the Jews is that will all be tarred with the same brush in time, and that would be a dreadful outcome, as the history of the last century should already have taught us.
It could happen a again, and Isreal is seemingly doing its best to guarantee it. Though the UK did some pretty rough things in the name of defeating the IRA, it methods were so much less of a blunt instrument approach than what Isreal is doing. Doing it with huge a incompetence, and no regard for the future settlement that must come in time, or even the damage done Internationally to the eventual possible standing of their State.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by Malky
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
I am not quibbling abount the £15m. I am pointing out, yet again, that the money wasn't specfically allocated to bomb children in Lebanon or to shoot women in the back.
Do you honestly believe Rumsfeld said to Olmert "There you go Ehud, bomb the shit (oops, scatology again) out of Lebanon, but don't you dare kill any women or children"
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Malky,
Surely this is the problem we all face, in that the US Gov't's Foreign Policy is being run by the most frightful "Neo-cons," whose right wing credentials seem to allow for any amount of cricism to be ignored.
In fact I am sure they are encouraging all this trouble, so that they can erode the Freedoms we value in the West in the name of a War On Terrorism, which is being stoked by their very actions, ably abbetted by the Zionists elements in the Isreally Gov't? It is a clever way to entrench themselves in power, and the outcome can be very dangerous for the whole World in time. It is amazing to me that Blair seems to take their bait, hook, line and sinker, much to the UK's disgrace, and diminished respect in the World, I am sure.
I have made some of these points already two posts back, right at the bottom of the previous page, but that post was far more tightly argued.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Surely this is the problem we all face, in that the US Gov't's Foreign Policy is being run by the most frightful "Neo-cons," whose right wing credentials seem to allow for any amount of cricism to be ignored.
In fact I am sure they are encouraging all this trouble, so that they can erode the Freedoms we value in the West in the name of a War On Terrorism, which is being stoked by their very actions, ably abbetted by the Zionists elements in the Isreally Gov't? It is a clever way to entrench themselves in power, and the outcome can be very dangerous for the whole World in time. It is amazing to me that Blair seems to take their bait, hook, line and sinker, much to the UK's disgrace, and diminished respect in the World, I am sure.
I have made some of these points already two posts back, right at the bottom of the previous page, but that post was far more tightly argued.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by Malky
Dear Fredrik
You are absolutely right. With the U.S winning the cold war, the Neo-Cons project for a 'New American Century' needs a bogeyman for them to justify their introduction of legislation which is so repressive that, even ten years ago, would have seemed like something out of Orwell's 1984.
The excellent 'Power Of Nightmares' documentary from a few years ago illustrated the way that the Neo-cons have manipulated a fear of 'a radical Islamist threat' for precisely the reasons that you state.
The really frightening thing is, in the UK, how the far-right are capitalising on Islamophobia and are a potentially very real threat.
You are absolutely right. With the U.S winning the cold war, the Neo-Cons project for a 'New American Century' needs a bogeyman for them to justify their introduction of legislation which is so repressive that, even ten years ago, would have seemed like something out of Orwell's 1984.
The excellent 'Power Of Nightmares' documentary from a few years ago illustrated the way that the Neo-cons have manipulated a fear of 'a radical Islamist threat' for precisely the reasons that you state.
The really frightening thing is, in the UK, how the far-right are capitalising on Islamophobia and are a potentially very real threat.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by bornwina:
Acad - you state your position is that of non religeous pacifist yet your focus seems only to be the wrongs of the West.
Don provided an opportunity for you to provide your analysis of the aims of certain of the 'less savoury' elements of the muslim world. Your glib responce was simply "they are not the main problem" (the main problem to a bereaved New Yorker I dare say)
As a stated non religeous pacifist, why not for example and for balance provide us with a link to footage of people throwing themselves out of the world trade centre, or people with their faces burnt off in the London Underground bombings? Were you to do this then I feel you would come across with more credibility and rather less of the overpoliticised radical muslim 'undergraduate' stance you seem to adopt.
The main problem is the main problem. The lesser problem results from the main problem. Therefore it is best to focus on the main problem. Since there is a appalling amount of Islama phobia in the western media as well as pro US/Israeli propaganda I only seek to add some balance and perspective. I do not align myself with any group. 9/11 was a false flag operation by the neocons. The evidence for this is overwhelming. 7/7 may have been a false flag op too. There is not so much evidence to support that view but there is evidence nonetheless. Why dont I provide links to people throwing out themsleves out of the world trade centre? The answer is because we have all seen these terrible images but few of us are aware of the other links thus the answer to your question is rather absurdly easy to answer. I have no sympathies for radical islam at all and you cannot possibly show that I have. In fact when the protests in London against the Danish cartoons took place I posted on this very forum that I thought those carrying placards inciting 'death to west' etc. should have been arrested on the spot and that the police were failing in their duties. Your post is a joke form start to finish.
I have never said I am not religious - this is your assumption.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by Don Atkinson
quote:Do you honestly believe Rumsfeld said to Olmert "There you go Ehud, bomb the shit (oops, scatology again) out of Lebanon, but don't you dare kill any women or children"
Nope.
Now, don't go falling into the trap of making rediculous allegations like Acad.
Acad said that the money was given, and I quoute "to bomb children in Lebanon and tanks to demolish houses in Gaza and bullets to shoot women in the back?"
Acad has already suffered a humiliating defeat and had to back down on the issue of shooting women in the back. I am confident that the USA would not have expicitly specified the money for the bombing of children in Lebanon nor the shooting of women in the back. Acad therefore knows his allegation was wrong, but deliberatly chose his words to provoke dislike towards Israel and the USA.
You are in danger of falling into the same trap.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Roy T:quote:A Christian bishop is, perhaps, not best placed to comment on matters of hypocrisy.
I do feel that his pont about Muslim hypocrisy is spot on and the finger of hypocrisy can indeed be directed in many directions as I am sure someone will point out sometime soon.
A lot has been made about the USA and other supplying arms aid and the like to Israel has anyone been able to find a figure of arms sales to say Saudi, The Gulf State and Pakistan? IIRC the three states mentioned have rather a large arms trade with the USA, UK and they might well be indulging in arms for oil swaps with China and others. I expect that the flow opf arms to the Middle East is not quite as one sided as one might expect from reading this thread.
The difference is the Saudis have to pay for the arms they are not given of free of charge
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by Malky
Don, Of course, you are correct in that Rumsfeld is unlikely to have specified that. What I am arguing, essentially, is that the U.S. arms Israel to further the U.S.'s interests in the middle East (i.e. oil). It really doesn't bother itself very much how Israel chooses to utilise that military aid as long as U.S interests are being served.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by scipio2
Acad,like many others including 'moderate' muslims, claims to have no sympathies for radical Islamists but is ready to make excuses for their murderous activities.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
[QUOTE]
You have deliberately missed the point, yet again. Let me patiently assist.....
I am sorry Don, I may have misunderstood you. Let me make this clear, I do not believe I have ever said that I though US aid was given for the sole purpose of bombing children or shooting women in the back but I do say that the aid is given in the sure knowledge that the aid is used for such purposes AND OTHERS EQUALLY HEINOUS. I hope this clears up the confusion.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by Malky
quote:Originally posted by scipio2:
Acad,like many others including 'moderate' muslims, claims to have no sympathies for radical Islamists but is ready to make excuses for their murderous activities.
Fair enough, there may be some validity in that argument. However, I urge you to acknowledge that support for the 'war on terror' equally has an element of being an excuse for the murderous activities of fundamentalist Christian, George Bush.
Posted on: 07 January 2007 by acad tsunami
quote:Originally posted by scipio2:
Acad,like many others including 'moderate' muslims, claims to have no sympathies for radical Islamists but is ready to make excuses for their murderous activities.
Give me an example where I have done. If you can do this I will donate £5,000 to the charity of your choice. If you cannot do this you must donate £5,000 to a charity of my choice. Do you want to take me on?