Why are Naim products expensive ?

You don't expect a serious reply surely.

Why do you think naim is expensive, or why does your friend think so, if you have any friends that is?

cheers

Nigel

The make up of my pre/power supply/power amp range in age from 1982 to 1985. They still work at their optimum and sound fantastic.

I had a Japanese piece of equipment which went faulty after just 4 years and the part to fix it was already unavailable.

Brian

JosephR ,

Don't believe easily persons who tell you how easy is to built something - unless they DID BUILT it with their own hands !

Arie

Thanks, everyone. And I guess it depends on income levels and disposable income. For many, it is expensive. It will still take me a year I guess to get a NAC 52 with Supercap what with all the other expenses, and another 2 to 3 years to get DBLs. Sure can get them with some loans, but my wife will surely kill me. So got to eke it out ...

And to Nigel, and others. I'm asking because I always get the same question, and I hope to get an answer where there will be no debate, no doubt - from the Naim experts here. Then I'm sure my friend will find a better reason to buy the Naims. He loves mine, but unfortunately, he heard a better top-of-the-line setup (NAC52,NAP 135,250,Supercaps,DBLs), and he's now trying to get justification before he shells out approx US$ 60,000+ for the whole setup. The owner also doesn't know, he doesn't care, just says that he loves the service of Naim, and that when he goes to the UK, they pick him up with a limousine ...

I visited the Naim factory in Salisbury many years ago. The attention to detail was striking. Each component was examined/tested to extremely tight tolerences and paired up with its other channel counterpart. Even though they bought in top grade components to start with the reject bins were heavily used. They had details of every piece of equipment they had ever sold and had a committment to returning items in for servicing back to the original (or better) spec. They showed me their research and design area which was state of the art at that time. The dealers get a healthy mark up to enable them to support the product for a life time, and their production is small compared to say Sony or whoever. For all these reasons Naim products are (relatively) expensive. But hey, what the hell, they are the best. If you want cheap go buy something else.

(can I have a free amp now Mr.Naim?)

Hey, Brian and Clifton ... Those are true ! I guess a great justification would indeed be longevity and service.

Thanks, Jez, great answer too !

Joseph

I am a Purchase Manager and my department has an annual expenditure of close on £400 million.

I would have a lot less sleepness nights if only 10% of my suppliers had the commercial acumen and committment to quality that naim has.

Also nobody has a gun put to their head to buy anything from anyone. We purchase Naim products because they are, in our opinion, the best products on the market at the given price.

Regards

Mick

joseph,

a few years ago, my nephew, who sometimes contributes to this forum, was truly shocked when i told him how much i paid for my naim hifi. he suspected i was somewhat "brainwashed" - to put it mildly. he stayed with us for a while, and during this time, i could clearly see how he was getting more and more drawn to the naim effect. i began to hear comments such as "i never really enjoy music these days unless played on your system". ahhh.. so the brainwashing is catching on!!

the rest, as they say is history. he is now the owner of a naim system that has seen rapid upgrades since he got his firts nait/intro a few years ago.

a price is "fair" if there are enough people willing to pay it. simple as that.

i like the naim business model. try hard as you can to look after your current customers because they will build your future business. that's more than i can say for other hifi manufacturers up north. i value the business relationship that i as customer believe i have with naim, and will continue to support them for as long as they sustain their very healthy attitude to their customers. naim have come to my aid when i had some really serious problems with certain dealers and i will not forget that quickly.

my next purchase, a cdsii, will involve some fancy footwork with the bank manager, and quite a few sacrifices, and some white lies to the wife, such as "this is the very last upgrade"... or "top loading cd player is safer because it will not swallow the puck", etc etc...

so naim stuff is very good value for me. not just for the equipment, but for the whole service package.

"brainwashed", or what???

enjoy...

ken

Says:. Then I'm sure my friend will find a better reason to buy the Naims. He loves mine,
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So what system do you have?

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but unfortunately, he heard a better top-of-the-line setup (NAC52,NAP 135,250,Supercaps,DBLs), and he's now trying to get justification before he shells out approx US$ 60,000+ for the whole setup.

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This is your Audio Research owning friend?

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The owner also doesn't know, he doesn't care, just says that he loves the service of Naim,

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not owning any, how would he know?

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and that when he goes to the UK, they pick him up with a limousine ...

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bollocks

cheers

Nigel

Nigel,

So what system do you have?

>> Cheap Naims ...

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but unfortunately, he heard a better top-of-the-line setup (NAC52,NAP 135,250,Supercaps,DBLs), and he's now trying to get justification before he shells out approx US$ 60,000+ for the whole setup.

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This is your Audio Research owning friend?

>> Obviously

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The owner also doesn't know, he doesn't care, just says that he loves the service of Naim,

----

not owning any, how would he know?

>> Didn't I just describe the owner's system ? You really must be on something ...

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and that when he goes to the UK, they pick him up with a limousine ...

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bollocks
>> suit yourself, guess you never got such good service ... what system do you own anyway ? Exposure ?

cheers

Nigel

So what system do you have?

>> Cheap Naims ...

*** Sorry, let me rephrase that. "Cheap" in the sense that it was way below the market price from a rich friend who upgraded to the NAP 500.

Anyway, you're the only one not giving a serious answer. What's your role in this forum anyway ?
Policeman for trolls ? I assure you this is not a troll ...

Good question, and one that all customers should be thinking about.
There are many things that I think about when buying something expensive, some key ones are:
1. What overall benefit does it give me for the price? Is it worth it?
2. What are my alternatives? Is the benefit and price reasonable when compared with the price and benefits of alternatives?
3. Do I trust the brand name to deliver what they say they will?
4. How much does it cost them to deliver this value? Are they milking me? How committed are they to keeping their costs down and passing the savings on to me?
5. Ethics: honesty, environmental, business practices

In "overall benefit" I'm including warranty, service, upgradability, pride of ownership etc. Items 1 through 3 are relatively easy to assess and these are key for determining what you should pay. Each potential customer will come up with a different number based on their preferences and their knowledge of 1,2 and 3. Therefore if someone thinks Naim prices are a rip-off then that's quite legitimate, similarly, if someone thinks they are a steal then that's ok too. Naim's marketing people make a decision about which customers they want and which they don't want, with the aim of maximizing long-term profit.
They are a business (albeit private) and they aim to maximize profit.

Items 4 and 5 are the harder ones to assess and often ones that elicit emotion. Why should it matter how much it costs Naim to provide a product/service? Because we like to buy from companies that we believe are committed to striving for efficiency on our behalf, both through improving their processes and those of their suppliers and distributors. This is done without reducing quality. This is an important ideal not just for individual buyers but for society as a whole - it encourages best practices and minimizes wasteful activities. That's why we care.

A more sinister issue is whether there are anti-competitive practices that allow dealers to charge a high price by eliminating or restricting alternatives. For a parallel consider the UK car industry. Certain symptoms arise when a market isn't "free" such as lack of variety of brands in shops, uniform pricing among all dealers, cross-border price differences that aren't explained by exchange rates and duties. These things are bad for the marketplace. When you see signs of this you have a profound decision to make: whether to forego your own needs in the short-term for the future good of the marketplace.

BAM

Do you live in Jersey by any chance?

No need to answer.

cheers

Nigel

JosephR-

Though I hardly speak from any position of authority (I'm a lowly service technician by day), I will point out that a NAP 250 purchased in 1985 will actually have increased in value relative to its purchase price new... Combined with the fact that there are twenty-plus year old units in the field, I'd say that's pretty good value for money, when well cared for.

Dave Dever, NANA

Naim is expensive as far as the price of entry. Even with the relative bargains available in used 32s, 32.5, 42.X, etc., even the cheapest Naim equipment is probably more expensive than the gear purchased by the average hifi owner.

But as high end hifi gear goes, it's less expensive than most, especially gievn its longevity.

The Naim line is far less expensive than tube stuff, for example, and it's less expensive than the high end transistor gear as well.

And for my mnoney, it sounds better.

The NAC52 is lot of money, but as an all out state of the art effort, it's cheaper than other companies' entries.

I would largely agree with bam's method for assessing the worth of 'expensive' items, and usually the final benefit to me is the one that I give most weight to.

For example the £600 or so I spent on my LP12, some 13+ years ago was a vast amount of money to me at the time. Looking back though, it has given me a huge amount of pleasure, every day of the year, without failing once. Is £600 a lot of money for 13 years of great music?

With regard to Naim, I challenge anyone to produce, for example, one of the 5 series items, with the same level of fit and finish, coupled with superb musical performance for less money. I promise you will not do it.

As an example, I have built my own power supplies for Naim pre-amps in the past, the raw component cost alone comes to a three figure sum, and the final appearance of the enclosure I had to use to fit it into leaves a lot to be desired. Factor in the R&D work involved in determining what factors are important to an audio power supply, defining procedures and making / purchasing the test equipment required to measure these factors and recreate them reliably and consistently, the cost of labour to build the item, component wastage from the careful selection of the best components (e.g. regulators) and you'll find your bank balance severely depleted.

On top of this you and the dealer / distributor has to make a profit. Bear in mind the dealer, in many cases, will be expected to deliver the item and set it up within your home, make speaker cables etc. - wrestling with NACA5 can be a time consuming process!

My own judgement on the expense of something is usually based on one thing though - can I buy a better or similar sounding product for less money elsewhere, with the same level of build quality, backed by the extremely high levels of customer service and support provided by Naim and it's dealer network.?

The answer is usually no!

Andy.

P.S. With regard to the generalisations such as 'Power supplies are not difficult to make' I guess that with a reasonable degree of electronics knowledge anyone could make a power supply, but not everyone could make a 'good' power supply, even less can make a good power supply suitable for audio equipment, such is their importance to the Naim range.

Andrew L. Weekes
alweekes@audiophile.com

[This message was edited by Andrew L. Weekes on MONDAY 05 February 2001 at 14:28.]

David Dever,

quote:

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Though I hardly speak from any position of authority (I'm a lowly service technician by day)

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Don't be modest. Your posts are great and you are an "insider" - which makes you valuable for us.

Arie

Interesting posts!

I've just ordered a CDS2 head unit and feel very comfortable that I have just parted with a large wad of cash. I know I will be delighted, if anything goes wrong I have a reputable dealer and strong backup from Naim.

The bigger picture is something else, Naim will be around for some time, the quality of their staff is excellent, always helpful, always supportive. Take their CDs, the artists can really put over their talents, to quote from an interview with Thea Gilmore when she was talking to Naim to do her CD "you really get it don't you" in the context of musicality.

I don't mind admitting that I am one of those people who have a religous brand loyalty to Naim, the black boxes have given me so much pleasure since 1981.

Tim