Need some advice from 52 & Fraim owners

what stand do you have now ?

Hi HFFF,

I have the soundstyle metal (4 legs rack), if I get fraim, it will be relegated for my AV stuff.

As I know that 82 is not fully used of the supercap (60% perhaps?)

cheers
Martin

alexgerrard is right ,if you can get a demo ....but I'll put my money on the Frame with Naim Chips
Steve

Mmmmmmm.

That's a tough one actually. I went through exactly the same upgrade path and went to Fraims before supercap to 82, then a fully upraded 52.

I have waxed about the impact the Fraim had to my entire system in the Forum and stand by this as an amazing and cost effective improvement that had an indelible impact on all aspects of my system.

I would also describe doing the mains recently as having a similar and remarkable gain but, in the same way the Fraim achieved, through a systemic rather than sonic improvement.

I guess the more critical question is what the future holds for you upgrade wise. I have a very strong feeling that a 52 sings on a Fraim and can confirm this having heard the self same set up on tripods, so, for that matter does an 82 but not to anything like the same extent.

I would predict that the 52 will realise a more instantly felt improvement but in an obvious more beguiling way that all new Naim boxes do. And yes, the 52 has an affect that is incredible but for my money, if its future proofing you are into, do the Fraim first and the mains if you havent already. That way you will provide the most stable environment for your entire system to operate, not just the pre-amp.

J.

Sorry guys, I remain skeptical a Fraim can make that much difference. First, let me say that I've never auditioned the same Naim equipment with and without a Fraim, so I am speaking here from my own admittedly biased preconceptions. Second, I understand from many forum members that the Fraim is an awesome product and I do not doubt it. But, does the Fraim really make lower-priced Naim equipment sound better than higher-priced Naim equipment on something other than the Fraim?

For me to purchase a Fraim that handles all of my equipment, I am looking at expenditures of roughly $4k in US dollars. For approximately that money, I could, among other things: (a) upgrade my 202/PSC2 to a 282/Hi-Cap2/PSC2; (b) upgrade my 200 to a 250 and add a Hi-Cap2 to my 202; (c) replace my decent $600 Marantz cdp with a CD5/Hi-Cap2 (and come close to a CDX2). (My next investment will be the last one - upgrading my cdp with a Naim cdp when funds permit.)

I have what I think is a decent rack that cost about $700. (I'll refrain from identifying it here for fear that it will divert attention to the issue I'm attempting to address). Am I to understand that my current 200/202/PSC2 system would sound better on a Fraim than, for example, a 200/282/Hi-Cap2/PSC2 system or a 250/202/Hi-Cap2/PSC2 system would on a decent mid-priced rack?

Signed, a skeptical naysayer who intends to upgrade his boxes before he spends that type of cash on a rack.

I bought my dealer's Fraim and thought the improvement was rather subtle tho I'm sure it maximised my system, lowly 92r/150 and CD5 FC2. But now I can concentrate on upgrading my gear and not the stands. I'd go for the box upgrade if I were doing it again.

I'm still eyeing a 282 and weighing the cost and benefits and rather thinking the issue now with money tight is between a 202 NAPSC or a used 82. But darn it I just don't see many 82's up for sale. Come on guys the new 252 is just waiting for your touch and listen. Put your 82s up for sale.

glenn

Life is analogue

I upgraded to the 52/SC and was as great an upgrade if not greater than getting my 135s recapped. Don't know if I'm as conviced about the stand though. Have heard a Naim system on and off of several different stand. There is a difference, but I still think the 52/SC was a bigger upgrade. Would be very suprised if you can get a 52 for 1K UKP though (definitely not with a SC. Recent listings on eBay seem to place 52 alone in the 2-3K range with the same for SC.

Best to listen at a dealers if you can.

Cheers,

Martin

Fraim does something fundamental to the 'presentation' of the music. It layers the sound with greater insight and information.

There is also a sense of ease as it 'presents' as opposed to 'throws' the music at the listener.

If you want to hear what the kit you have, is really capable of; it's the way to go.

A 52 will shine 'bryter layter'

I have been through the self same upgrade path but preceeded the shift from 82 to 52 headamp with the Fraim.

I guess much of the answer I would give depends greatly on the future of your system than doing one or the other in which order.

If its an instant fix you seek, of course a 52 will make a huge improvement but for my money (which it was funnily enough) a Fraim provides a better, systemic basis upon which you can future proof the inherent quality of what you already have with room to grow later.

It is here that I totally disagree with Naimed in NY whose reaction is like bagging a movie without seeing it first. What a complete nonny.

The Fraim will do your whole system justice and extract from it a new found level you didnt know was there and still keep blowing you away long after a green box full of electronics will.

When the time is right a 52 will take it up the next logical level in a way that a 52 cannot do alone.

Believe me, I know what the 82 to 52 effect is all about, but I will never forget the control and total grasp and weight the Fraim added whereas the 52 was far more subtle.

The Fraim is also a stunning piece of design which helps too.

Martin
I have recently upgraded on the secondhand route from 82 to 52 and this would be my recomendation to you. A great upgrade to a great sound, and only about 1k differential on the 2ndhand market.

I also currently use 2 soundstyle 4 leg stands.

I am having difficulty accepting Fraim : I am sure the sonic benefits are great, brilliant etc.....but IMO it's v.expensive and v.ugly.
I am in the market for new stands because of domestic circumstances. Having been once highly regarded, Soundstyle stands now barely rate any sort of positive response.
I have not demoed anything yet, but Isoblue and Hutter have certainly got the vote on WAF.

Go for the 52 upgrade and see what you think (and use the full potential of the s/cap) - I find it hard to believe a fraim upgrade would be as great.

Regards
Adam

Fraim, no question.

Thomas

The Fraim is fundamentally great at resolving all the cool music from your system in a way no other rack I've encountered will do. A well set-up five series system on Fraim just plays music.

I had the same system as you until recently - CDS2+XPS/82+SC/250/SBL. You've got two winning options, neither of which could be considered a wrong turn. They'll both improve your system. I had chosen the 52 as the next upgrade, if only from space considerations currently ruling out Fraim.

As for Naimed in NY, I'm with Jonathan. You've not seen or heard what a Fraim can do - best you get your ears around one before commenting further, or more importantly, buying more boxes.

In closing - Fraim is a far better than the Mana rack I currently use.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

I suggest that you get the 52 and then use the change to get started on the Fraim, build one tower and place the two power supplies on the existing rack - then as you get more money you gan get the extra shelves to complete the Fraim towers.

This route will allow you to do several relatively small cost upgrades of buying individual Fraim shelves when you can afford them.

Derek

<<Have you checked your PTs today>>

Martin

I had exactly this dilemma with the choice of 135's thrown in as well. Same electronics but LP12 and Kans. In order of preference, 52->Fraim->135's. I bought the 52, closely followed by the Fraim. I still use a 250.

Regards
Steve

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all these advices, it's helpful, but the mixed opinions do make me think even harder.
Both options are good. 52 option is cheaper (trade in my 2 years 82 and add about 1K). I want to get a recent 52.

I demo the fraim before, it's amazing, compared with quadraspire original and reference. With a lower naim kit. CDX2/202/200/allae. Just moved the CDX2 around. Other kit remain on quadraspire original. soundstage is much much wider and deeper. Music is flowing. Peoeple always said this, I didn't believe it until then. If I can get a recent 52 (2-3 years), I might get a 52 first. As 52 is out of production, the longer I wait, it will be much older.

There are quite a lot of 52 on the market now, but most of them are over 6 years old. I have to wait and see.

Once again, thanks.

cheers
Martin

Ugly! really?

Depends on your definition and criteria for measuring beauty.

I guess if you reckon Salma Hayek is a bush pig and a Ferrari 250 GTO a bit of an eyesore. then you are probably right.

Maimed in NY. There's really no hope for you is there matey.

Lets put it another way and add a more practical level to the debate. I was sold when I heard my dealer move one piece of equipment on and off a Fraim at a time. Each step made a big difference and it was then that I fixated on the net effect this would have upon 5 boxes.

As the saying goes, dont knock it until you have tried it.

I wonder if the type of floor has a significant bearing on how the different racks affect the sound.

If the rack stands on a bouncy suspended wooden floor it may have more to deal with than if it is placed on a stable solid concrete floor.

My thinking is based on the rack having to "do more" in terms of effectively dealing with vibration from the speakers, and from the electronics placed on it, when the it is placed on a very bouncy wooden floor.

It's difficult to do a like for like comarison because swaping your floor is a little on the difficult side. But I suspect if you have a bouncy wooden floor the effect of a better rack will be more pronounced and drive you towards upgrading the rack first, otherwise I'd go for the 52 first.

Jim J

quote:

"I wonder if the type of floor has a significant bearing on how the different racks affect the sound.

If the rack stands on a bouncy suspended wooden floor it may have more to deal with than if it is placed on a stable solid concrete floor.

My thinking is based on the rack having to "do more" in terms of effectively dealing with vibration from the speakers, and from the electronics placed on it, when the it is placed on a very bouncy wooden floor."


I'll second Jim,
...it does make sence that the effect of a better rack will be more prononced on a bouncy wooden floor than on a very stable concrete floor...
...Is Fraim a stunning upgrade in any room with concrete floor? that's the question!

Edouard

52 vs Fraim Upgrade

Hi Martin

Upgrade dilemmas are always a nice predicament to be in, especially when it involves a 52 vs the Fraims...

For me the 52 bares the music over the 82 in ways the latter only hinted, and as you've pointed out, the icing on the cake with this upgrade over the Fraim is that it also costs less...

So the 52 anytime over the Fraims if it's one or the other.

The Fraims are by some margin one of the most (if not the most) convincing racks I have heard, and for those who might point the finger and say this is obviously a biased, predisposed opinion in a Forum dedicated to Naim, the proof is in the auditioning.

Rightly pointed out, the Fraims are really an upgrade on its own, and not so much just a "mere rack" from Naim. There's something in the way it handles note decay, with a heavenly tip-to-toe coherence that embarasses the other rack makes. I also liked its fluidity, which obviously contributed to the music's PRT. However this is assuming you've gotten the set-up right, and from what I've seen, I don't think it's that difficult to achieve the Fraim's exemplary sonics for your investment. Add its beautiful sculptured appearance, and you'll be most pleased to have, to most intents and purposes, the hi-fi rack for all seasons.

Still, with this choice you're having to make, the Fraim upgrade most probably enriches the listening experience over the night and day difference you'll hear with a 52 over the 82.

Happy choosing and listening; the music's groovin' frightfully more.

Rgds

Philip

naimniac for life

quote:

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Originally posted by Thomas K:
Fraim, no question.

Thomas

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For Gods sake, man, get to the bloody point will you.

Hope all well with Lulu

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

quote:

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Is Fraim a stunning upgrade in any room with concrete floor?

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From experience - Yes; if it was preceded by a poor quality support.

My Naim kit used to be on metal 'Sound Org' tables. I became disillusioned with the sound and in desperation dumped it all on the floor.

It sounded better.

I'm firmly convinced that any ferrous stand (and that includes the 'M' word) has a deleterious effect on sound quality.

If funds are tight - anything made of wood is the answer. Rigid if possible and isolate/decouple each shelf/item as best you can.

I got your message John
bonne nuit
Edouard