What's going on?

dear Paul ,

I am unhappy by the tone of your reply as i feel it smacks of a bit of an insult to your customers.

For very many years the Linn Naim philosophy was based on critical listening and comparing various manufacturers product with the Linn Naim stables.

I have been in the HiFi industry and have sold Linn and Naim product so am familiar with the philosophies of critical listening.

So when customers report on a budget product offering performance way above the price of said product and being concerned at the lack of a clear and obvious sound quality difference, i am disappointed that you dont ask why?????

But seek to imply that all of a sudden they may be deficient in their ability to discriminate sound quality differences.

These guys are your customer base and have been loyal to Naim for very many years and have invested thousands in your product.

I had hoped that you would be more interested in the findings and investigate this your self.

I do not own Linn or Naim but have 5 systems up and running at home which all sound different and have different attributes. I love all of them but my favourite system is my SACD Valve pre power into large corner horns. Not mainstream but i bought this because it does what i want and i love litening to it reproduce music in my home.

regards David

Greg,

you raise a fair point, and one that I'd wondered about.

It's OK to play the Sony against the CDSii for an hour and say "it's not that far off". CD doesn't display the huge presentational variations that we got used to with vinyl.

I do wonder if you lived with the Sony for a month, then switched back to CDSii whether it would be a relief, or a let-down.

It's very easy to get used to a certain level of performance, and take some aspects for granted.

I downgraded from 52/six-pack/Isobariks to NAIT2/Kans for a while. You start out thinking how good it is, considering. Eventually you do miss the good stuff, though.

I guess I'll get to hear J.N.'s Sony sometime soon. Should be fascinating.

cheers, Martin

The only valid test for me is; after a few months ownership, how often do I have to go and listen to some music when I really have other things to do, and how long do I stay playing disc after disc. The original cost of the components doesn't always make a difference, but a nice synergistic, balanced system does.

I agree with you all that extended listening is the only true test and I fully intend to do that before I do anything so rash as to dump the 3.5. (I want a DVD player anyway)

The point I was making was that in terms of detail a CD player at 5% of the price of my current player was delivering 85% (at least). The only difference was in the high treble where the naim was better - but the difference was not that significant.

This was not intended as a criticism of naim, or any other high-end manufacturers, simply a report of what I found when I did the comparison.

cheers

Nigel

"The point I was making was that in terms of detail a CD player at 5% of the price of my current player was delivering 85% (at least). "

You'll probably find its that last 15% that makes all the difference.

I usually apply the 80:20 rule, 80% of the result can be achieved by 20% of the effort/cost (or less in your case)

That's probably the case here. The cheaper player can go so far but it takes the extra investment in R&D, better components, high build quality and quality control that you get with Naim (and others, to be fair) hence the prices they charge.

My DVD player can play CD's adequately and would be a competent substitute should my CD5 be unavailable but I wouldn't want to live with it as my main source for my place mat collection.

Naim SACD players? If SACD becomes a mainstream format then Naim will probably produce some but with Naim values and prices attached (probably in the same ballpark as the current range of CD players £1100 upwards).

I agree 100% with Rockingdoc. Over the years many friends have bought 'better', or '..its a lot cheaper and is nearly as good as Naim..' components and told me I should swap. Most don't listen to music much any more, I wondered if its just that they've moved on to other interests.
But when they come round for an evening we end up listening to music till the small hours. Now they say my system (when its not in pieces!)sounds great. A number of Xerxes owners sold their decks because '..I don't really listen to LPs anymore.' But really enjoy listening to my old LP12. My system is nothing exceptional in 'Hi-Fi' terms, but is engaging and enjoyable. The real measure of how good your hi-fi is, is how often you listen to it.

I have listened to recorded music for many years - firstly on "music centres", then, when I decided CD was the thing, on a Richer Sounds effort, then with a Marantz CD 3se through my current amp/speakers.

I can say in all truth that I enjoyed every system I have had and I listen to music no more often now than I did previously.

I suspect that I now have the 3.5 in place of the Marantz is that I fell into the trap of valuing "brand loyalty" or "pride of ownership". That is to say the 3.5 was nowhere near 3 times as good as the Marantz (the price differential at the time) but I had the cash and it matched the nait 3.

I wonder how many of you, when considering an up-grade, audition a naim only up-grade without bothering to listen to other kit at a similar price point?

Whatever, I look forward to testing the lower end of the market.

cheers

Nigel

This thread is further proof that the CD medium is fatally flawed since it takes a 6K machine to be able to listen to it for more than a couple of hours without screaming.

The biggest single factor which I treasure about the CDS2 is that I can listen to it all day long. As others have suggested, it can be difficult to pick up on this in a simple 10 min a/b dem, although it took me just 1 nanosecond to realise my Tosh DVD player should stick to movies.

Alex

PS Of course this thread may just be confirming that the CDS2 doesn't like sitting on glass :> )

"I had hoped that you would be more interested in the findings and investigate this your self."

Yes I have........not an interesting result, no question, no music compared to the naim player.

The mistake was when JV caved in and allowed the bloody CDS

Dear Paul,

a couple of years ago we ran a HiFi club locally and one of my favourite games was to provide an evening of blind listening comparisons.

A system would be set up with a set no of variables eg cable comparison, amp comparison or in fact cd player comparison.

The evening that we did the cd comparison we were able to compare a standard to a modified machine.

the test was duly done and the results were collated and presented to the audience.

the results went against the modified machine and this caused a degree of heated debate with people with a vested interest in the result of the test.

The dealer and his customers selected the standard machine over the modified machine.

The comparison that took place at a friends house was not blind but did result in interesting results which surprised all who listened.

remember, in the light of comments posted on other posts the sony was fresh out the box and had not had the opportunity to settle in over a few weeks. The NAIM had been running for a considerable time.

Your simple rebuff of my earlier post probably says more about your listening preferences than about your ability to discriminate fairly with regard to a mass market budget product compared to a high value hand made product.

I have a Ferrari it is fast, a friend has a caterham which is fast. ( ps i dont just fantasy)

Which would you buy ?

yes the sony is inferior to the NAIM in all aspects of performance but it is pretty close and to a non hifi enthusiast they would probably hear little or no difference.

I could certainly achieve a greater sound difference just by changing cables.

This is a fun hobby which consumes much time and money and provides the enthusiast with a lot of enjoyment.

regards David

"Your simple rebuff of my earlier post probably says more about your listening preferences than about your ability to discriminate fairly with regard"

No at all I can tell in a few seconds if something has any merit to me. If it does'nt play music its not worth a ..... and I mean music not hifi. Easy to discriminate one is junk and does not play music and the other is worth listening to music on.
Owning as a hobby, no problem why not, just not for me.

Most of the people who use Naim equipment (or that of some genuine competitor) presumably do so for the very qualities that cannot be compared in terms employed here (this £6,000 machine is not x times better than this 6000/x cheap one). This is a commonly invoked "waste of money" "not worth it" rationale.

One can't easily quantitate the subtlety, fidelity, emotional communication, enjoyability etc. of musical reproduction. But for some of us this is the raison d'etre of HiFi, very important in life and why we are prepared to pay for it. In this spirit I wouldn't buy any Sony CDP I have yet heard, including SACD. Each to their own, of course.

Taking a tangent, it will be interesting to follow the evolution of such new media.

Stewart

The cd layer of the (very) few SACD discs I've heard were great, which I think points more to the care given in the remastering process. It also shows how much can be had from the cd format if properly done.
IF I were going to invest more money in a CDP, it would most certainly be a naim. I'm not a sheep, but over thirty years in this hobby of mix and match, I find consistently great results in the all naim system. Having "Been there, done that," with lots of mix and match brands, I think naim's approach is refreshing. (Confession - never heard naim speakers, too damn hard to find
round here and speakers in and of themselves are onerous things to shop for.)
I was for a long time a dyed in the wool fan of a certain west coast digital company. I used exclusively their brand of d/a's, transports, and climbed the recommended ladder of connection hierarcy. Used it in many variations of systems and brands. Then, I did my stint with Listener Magazine which allowed me to experience a great deal more digital products in my environment than perhaps dealers get to do. One day it struck me, my fave gear exagerates dynamics! Slow on the uptake, or in need of the huge array of contrasts, but there it was. Once I realized that everything changed (paradigm shift?)
My point is that listening to a sony sacd player for an extended period of time may not necessarily reveal a fault in it's musicality. Small differences result in big prices in this hobby, so saying there are only small differences between the sony and model x only states the obvious, in my opinion.
Never gotten nervous about my system being "right" because it's always swept me up and away since I got naimed, and I rarely think about what it's doing when the music is on. Musicality is a delicate thing, and it's lack can be subtle and insidious.
I always achieve the goal with the naim. Having missed it completely in the past with other brands, I am content to wait and see what happens with the format, but I cannot fault naim for not going down a road that perhaps they need not even trod

Bob,

Paradigm shift is exactly how I describe my experience with hi-fi and naim. I had top end Denon cd and "Clean" H/K 100 watts and nice DQ-18 when helping my girlfriend buy a system for her. Having never heard of naim or British brands in general I had no idea what I was looking at. She ended up with a cd3/nait 2 and Epos 11. It also took me a little while to figure out what her naim was doing that mine wasn't... but then it hit me. Her's played music. Paradigm shift. And I even play music. I was just simply asking the wrong questions of my stereo and it took me a little while to lose my old vocabulary and wrap my head around the fact that her 15 watt shoebox crushed my "clean" hundred watts.

Many products make pleasant and interesting sounds, few make music. Naim, what a wonderful thing.

Connon

[This message was edited by connon price on SUNDAY 29 September 2002 at 00:50.]

I heard the Sony myself over the weekend.

It's very pleasant, and 'sounds' good, but it doesn't make you want to listen, though.

cheers, Martin

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It's very pleasant, and 'sounds' good, but it doesn't make you want to listen, though.

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Martin can you explain a bit more here?

cheers

pac,

the sound is very different in character to the CDSii - much more behind the speakers, lots of openness, a fuller bass. Illuminating!

Fairly soon, though, it sinks in that there is no involvement.

I do wonder what it would be like in my system, though.

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not an interesting result, no question, no music compared to the naim player

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This is a good description. Don't sell that CD5, JN!

cheers, Martin

Martin,
Thanks for the additional comments - nice description.

I assume your comments on the performance of the Sony is just on a CD demo? Did you also try out the SACD capability?

cheers

My Sony player is now where it belongs feeding the £90 Denon PMA 255UK and a £200 pair of JM Lab floorstanders.

This forms my 'computer room' system and is mainly used for background music, but sounds just fine.

Not bad for a £400 system.

Somehow, I had expected this thread to end this way. Hail naim!

david

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The CDS is of course better; but you'd be surprised by how little. Putting a £120 player into a 52 ought to be a disaster. It ain't. It stays smooth and refined. Quite remarkable.

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That's right David.
I've experienced some of it myself, when I tried some cd's on my new Sony DVD N-300. I've made some A/B comparison and the conclusion is that nowadays Sony is somewhat better. All experiments were made with my CD3, NAC 92/NAP 140/HiCap, with absolute ordinary interconnect cable for the DVD and ordinary CD's.
It is true that the DVD's DAC has a 24/96 specification, but the differencies were minor, believe me.
Constantin

quote:

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I've experienced some of it myself, when I tried some cd's on my new Sony DVD N-300. I've made some A/B comparison and the conclusion is that nowadays Sony is somewhat better.

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you people must be deaf. Can't remember if it was mentioned, but at 'The night in Beckenham' my Sony DVD NS300 was compared to my CDX... for about 10 seconds. That was all the time we could handle with the dvd. It was shocking.
How anyone can say that it compares in any way to a CDS is beyond me.

Not sure if there are still any floating around, but a few months back the Sony SCD-XB940 (2-ch SACD) was available for v. little, considering that a few years ago it was a reasonably rated £550 machine. I paid £150 at Richer Sounds, and - should I confess this here?! - it is currently my main CD source. Sounds pretty good for the (lower) price I think, through Linn Kolektor/LK85 and Naim Intro2. Probably best not to put it head-to-head with a Naim or Rega offering though, at least not until I've scaped some pennies together...

Does anyone else have experience with this Sony? I sometimes experiment with the different digital filter settings, but always inconclusively. Ditto with the track/time display on and off. If anything I think it sounds more open with the display on!

Regards,
Dan

They are £120 in black.

£130 in silver.

Probably only silver ones available now.