Emil Gilels plays Beethoven
Posted by: Tam on 30 October 2006
Apologies, in advance, to anyone expecting to get a discourse on the subject, the likes of which Todd would provide, my knowledge of the sonatas is not nearly up to that (and my listening to this set has not been nearly exhaustive enough).
At the recommendation of Graham, and one or two others, I picked up
this set of Emil Gilels playing almost all of Beethoven's sonatas (cheap at just over £20 for the 9 discs). Sadly Gilels didn't live to complete the survey and works such as the op.2/1 and op.111 are missing, however, most of the major sonatas are present (including some of my favourites such as the op.49/2, which escaped Solomon's survey and the op.79 are there as well as most of the most famous ones and, I think, all the named sonatas).
My first impression was pretty favourable. At Graham's suggestion (he having asked me to compare), I jumped in with the op79. And how different from the reading that Paul Lewis provides. Of course, Lewis has an unfair advantage over Gilels in that I have experienced his playing live and thus the CD enables me to recapture that magic in a way that is not possible with Gilels. Gilels goes much quicker than Lewis and it's a wonderfully exiting reading (I much prefer it to both Kempff and Barenboim which both feel a little tame to me). That said, I think in his haste Gilels loses the beauty that Lewis manages to capture.
After this I heading straight for the first disc, which contains the op.2 sonatas 2 and 3 and here the experience was more mixed. There is something rather deliberate, even clinical about Gilels' playing. In a way, what it most reminds me of is Helmut Walcha playing Bach - the intricate logic of the musical construction that he brings out. However, while I think that works extremely well for Bach, I like it much less in Beethoven. It works well in the quicker movements (as the op.79 attests) but saps the slow of much of their beauty. It also contributes to a rather safe feel that much of what I have listened to exhibits - and I don't think Beethoven should really feel safe in quite the predictable way it seems to here.
Wondering if the op.2s are to blame, I cast my net wider, but found many of the works I have so far tried. The op.27/2 is nice enough, but not nearly so haunting as Kempff in the slow movement and not nearly his fire in the succeeding ones. I find his op.49/2 horribly dull. There also seems to be an issue for me in terms of thumping. I am, probably, somewhat oversensitive in what I consider pianists striking the keyboard over-hard. However, what has astonished me most, amongst the many things that have done so, with regard to Lewis's playing is the volume he can draw without nasty percussive thumps or the tinny sound that can sometimes occur (and is my principle complaint with Gilels in this regard) with too much volume - this is particularly apparent in the Hammerklavier. The Appassionata lacks the firey intensity and, well, passion that Lewis managed in concert the other evening. But, again and again, what really spoils these works for me is that overly deliberate and clinical playing I mentioned above.
To be sure there are nice things here, the op.79 and I very much like the second movement of the op.109 (for similar reasons), however not so much the first movement and, compared to Uchida's disc of the last 3, which I also picked recently, it doesn't keep finding its way back into my CD player.
I should caveat all this with the fact that I am intensely picky about my pianism and what I like and dislike. I know others love what Gilels has to offer (and there is certainly some remarkable playing and, while it often moves me little, technique here) and would urge those who haven't heard any to give it a try. For me though, I think the set will soon be moving on.
As to my next foray into Beethoven's keyboard writing, I have my eye on one of Alfred Brendel's sets (after all, Mr Lewis is a former pupil of his..... and he too has impressed me in the concert hall).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 31 October 2006 by graham55
Well, Tam, we all have our pianistic heroes. I shall always prefer sovereign hitters of the keys such as Gilels or Pollini to less able players such as Brendel. And, to me (at least) Gilels, for all the vagaries of microphone placements, outplays Paul Lewis to a considerable degree.
My great regret with the Gilels DG sonata cycle was that it wasn't pushed through more quickly. I don't think that, at the start, it was envisaged as a complete cycle and Gilels liked to use his jaunts to the West as an excuse to get out of Soviet Russia. But his DG producers just didn't push him hard enough.
This meant that the cycle wasn't completed and that some of the more taxing works (such as the 'Hammerklavier') were recorded a few years later than they should have been, when Gilels was at his prime. (Some of the earliest recordings - the 'Appasionata", ''Waldstein' and op. 101 - show Gilels in his pomp.) Opp. 109 and 110 were, I think, his very last recordings, and are wonderful, but it's a f*cking shame that he never got to record the great final op. 111.
Graham
Posted on: 31 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
Not so long agao a god Forum friend sent me a nice bouquet of discs of Beethoven sonatas, and without denigrating those that struck as less fine, I was left with the impression that Annie fischer is the absolute monarch in the ones she played, and that I would never want to be parted with Gileles reading of the Hammerklavier!
I am in oland at the moment! It still gives me food for thought on emigrating from the UK which is finished in so many ways for the little man like me...
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 31 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
Serious apologies for the typos! That was a first draft, and I can't edit it. There is s displaced "o" and a "P" missing from a[P]oland!
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 01 November 2006 by Tam
Dear Graham,
I suppose it depends what you mean. In most regards I wouldn't debate that Gilels has immense technical skill (though, as I said, I do not like the tones he gets at very high volumes). My issue is far more with the way I find the playing strangely clinical (which is really a matter of perspective).
Dear Fredrik,
You have (or will shortly) have mail.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by Michael_B.
I also find Gilels a bit mechanical - not much subtlety of touch or internal development to my (arrogant) mind.
I certainly much prefer Fischer or Serkin or Curzon or Perahia or - of course - Schnabel....
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by graham55
Each to their own., I suppose, but Gilels was never 'mechanical'. After all, his wondrously fetching account of Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto, recorded with the Philharmonia in the 1950s by EMI, is easily the best version ever recorded.
Graham
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by Tam
quote:
Originally posted by graham55:
After all, his wondrously fetching account of Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto, recorded with the Philharmonia in the 1950s by EMI, is easily the best version ever recorded.
For me there is not, and I doubt there ever will be, anything that equals Kempff's efforts with this work (not least becuase he uses his own perfectly judged cadenza).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by graham55
So, Tam, I can only conclude that you haven't heard Gilels or Pollini in this work. But, no matter, you can remain of your view, if you haven't!
G
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by Tam
I haven't. And while it would be a very pleasant surprise if either changed my view, I tend to struggle with readings that don't use Kempff's cadenzas as they just seem so much more right (to me) than Beethoven's own. Iconoclasic, I know.
Still, I am curious to hear both at some point, it is, after all, one of my favourites.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 02 November 2006 by u5227470736789439
Gilels, Kempf, Pollini...
Well I still return to Edwin Fischer with the Philharmonia [on Testamant at the mo, in good mono sound from 1954], and find it completely satisfying, at least it seems to me to characterise the music so nicely that I cannot recall any specific details of the performance at all, whist the music resonates on for a long time...
The italicized words seem to me to be what great performance is all about, but as each of us share only a partially similar view of the music, there can never be a best version in my view! I hardly care if anyone agrees with me these days, but all I hope is that if I am enthusiastic, then some here may be brave enough to possibly try the music I enjoy best of all. I cannot get into comparisons between the great and the great. My one observation, however, is that the merely good, is indeed the enemy of the great!
Catch you all soon... Fredrik
Posted on: 03 November 2006 by Michael_B.
Hi Graham,
I don't think I've heard his Beethoven's fourth. I don't find him mechanical like, say, Cziffra, but do think he sometimes lacks subtle control of tone. I also find him a little sentimental at times - slushy contrasts rather than real emotional development.
But as you say, each to their own.
Cheers
Mike
Posted on: 03 November 2006 by Todd A
I picked up this Gilels set earlier this year, and find it variable. At his best, Gilels is among the very greatest of all LvB interpreters (as in the Op 53), but at other times he can be a bit heavy and plodding. His awesome technical command, though, means that one is always completely certain that he is playing the music in a purposive fashion. I’d rate this a second tier set – which isn’t too bad given some of his company. One of these days I hope to summarize my thoughts on the set, and the other five complete sets I’ve got under my belt in the last several months.
For Brendel, the earlier the better. Vox, then analog Philips, then digital Philips is the way to go.
--
Posted on: 04 November 2006 by Tam
Dear Todd,
Unfortunately, your comments come too late as the digital Brendel arrived this morning (though I haven't got round to giving any a spin yet). This partly as it was the easiest to find (and for not too bad a price). Actually, I did seek out the Vox but, owing largely to my idiocy didn't realise it came as 4 2-disc sets (with a fifth box containing the various variations and the like, which I have ordered - of depending on them, I may well pick up the rest, since they're absurdly cheap on the Amazon market place).
That said, I do have Brendel's digital Diabelli variations which I enjoy very much (though I have nothing to compare them with). I have also heard him twice in this repertiore, including in a concert about 10 years ago where he played the final two (possibly the final three but I don't think so, I remember being a little short-changed as to the length) which were wonderful, and roughly contemporary with the recording.
As regards the Gilels, I would say again that I really did find the op.57 oddly cool. I wish you had been at the Queen's Hall a week last Monday to hear Lewis's account. I'd recommend that you get the CD when it arrives but sadly, I expect it will be a pale shadow of what he manages in the concert hall (certainly the the recent CD issue falls into that category). Fortunately, the BBC will be broadcasting it next June.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 05 November 2006 by pe-zulu
Dear Tam
Very interesting thoughts from you about Gilels Beethoven sonatas.
Gilels recording of Beethovens fourth piano concerto with Philharmonia/Leopold Ludwig (the one Graham mentions above) as well as the Emperor with the same forces and the Brahms second with CSO under Reiner (RCA) was frequent listening in my home as a child, and these exceptional recordings learnt me to worship Gilels Elysian qualities, when he was in his prime (1950es and 60es). In the early 1990es I acquired some of his Beethoven sonates for DG (no. 7,18,23,29,31 among others), and found them primarily imposing in their structure-based monumental character. And when the 9 CD almost complete set was released for the first time (1997) I acquired it, but in some way it became stuck in my long term listening queue. Your thread inspired me to listen it all through in a few days.
And what did I hear? Well, a very mixed bag rangíng from the almost unacceptable to the most subtle interpretations. The set was recorded during a long period (1971-86), but strangely this doesn´t reflect the quality. A pity he didn´t record all the sonatas, when he was in his prime (1960es), but as far as I remember, he didn´t, because many of the sonatas weren´t part of his repertoire at that time, and actually he studied them for the first time for the DG recording. Maybe this explains the wavering quality of the interpretations. Compared with Kempff or Backhaus, who recorded the sonates after a lifelong acquaintance with the works, I think, it becomes obvious, that Gilels in many cases hasn´t digested the works properly yet. In these cases (many of the early sonates and some of the middle period sonates) he is inadequately occupied with details and miss the coherence. Part of the problem rests in his detached style with short phrasing and almost no use of the sustaining pedal. This adds to the transparency but creates at the same time often a mess of disorganized impressions. And his liberal use of dynamic variations with unexpected sforzati and stressing of unexpected notes detracts from the sense of musical order and logic. Often his tempi are very fast but sometimes unexplicably slow. In slow movements he often uses some rather contrived rubati, which in my ears quickly give an impression of mannerism. But the late sonatas (from no 26 and on) don´t suffer from this treatment. Instead he strikes a quite different and more fluent style, with longer phrasings, less detached style and more self-understood agogics, and he succeeds in showing the ethereal and otherworldly character of these works better than most collegues. The recordings as such were made with very close miking (almost like Stephan Kovacevics EMI cycle) and this explains the harsh sound in the ff and fff passages. Surely his touch was more beautiful, than we can hear here. I shall keep the set because of the last sonates, but only a few of the sonates up to no 25 incl will spin again on my CD deck.
Concerning the Brendel Philips digital set: It depends upon, how you look at it. It is indeed more idiosyncratic than his Vox set, but looked upon in another way, you may say that the Vox set is a bit pale, and the Philips digital set more individual. But the Vox set is so cheap, that the solution is to have both sets for comparation. Forced to choose though, I would choose the Vox set.
Regards, Poul
Posted on: 05 November 2006 by Tam
Dear Poul,
That makes for interesting reading and I think I shall definitely explore the later sonatas in a degree more depth before the set makes its way to Fredrik.
As to Brendel, I have only listened to the first disc (which, interestingly, as with the Lewis cycle, begins with the op.31 sonatas) along with the op.79 and the op.57. All of which I have enjoyed very much, the 57 particularly though the 79 not so much as Lewis. I like the individuality, I suspect that is why I get on well with him and not with Gilels - I think Beethoven interpretation should have that.
As I mentioned, part of the Vox cycle (most of the smaller works, but also a couple of the sonatas) is en route so unless it turns out to be a complete disaster, I expect the rest to follow.
While on Brendel, have you heard the Schubert disc I mention on the 'What are you listening to' thread?
regards, Tam
Posted on: 06 November 2006 by Michael_B.
Poul,
thanks from me, too. I agree with what you write about the earlier works, so I may well track down the late sonatas to hear what he does with them.
Cheers
Mike
Posted on: 06 November 2006 by pe-zulu
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
As to Brendel, I have only listened to the first disc (which, interestingly, as with the Lewis cycle, begins with the op.31 sonatas) along with the op.79 and the op.57. All of which I have enjoyed very much, the 57 particularly though the 79 not so much as Lewis. I like the individuality, I suspect that is why I get on well with him and not with Gilels - I think Beethoven interpretation should have that.
While on Brendel, have you heard the Schubert disc I mention on the 'What are you listening to' thread?
regards, Tam
Dear Tam
Your words about Brendel make me think you were right, opting for the Brendel digital set. Time will show.
I have to confess, that Schubert never was one of my greatest interests. Of course I know many of his works, and I find works like the third and fifth symphony as well as the Unfinished very appealing. And of course the Impromptus, but here only Edwin Fischer can do it for me. I have never made a systematical exploration of Schuberts piano sonates, -what I have heard, I find too loose in construction, just a collection of nice tunes. This is perhaps Schuberts strong side but also his weak side, compared e.g. to the eventful Beethoven. BTW I often have considered to acquire a complete set of Schuberts symphonies. This would have to be a small band version stressing the classical elements and not the romantic elements in the music. Because I find the roots backwards (yes to Haydn among others) to be the most decisive elements in the symphonies. It should be for Schubert what Mackerras` outstanding Beethoven set is for Beethoven. A propos: I have enjoyed Mackerras´Beethoven very much, (and still owe you a report about my impressions).
Kind regards, Poul
Posted on: 06 November 2006 by Tam
Dear Poul,
Your earlier comments made me revisit the penultimate disc of the Gilels set (which contains 26, 27, 30 and 31) and the results were most interesting. By and large they do not seem to suffer from the mechanical/clinical problems I found with much of the rest of the set (though they do rear their heads for me in some places in the 27th and also the first movement of the op.109). However, the Adieux was absolutely beautiful so perhaps you are right in saying he hadn't quite come to terms with all the sonatas - certainly on that one he seems to have plenty to say.
Interestingly, the liner notes suggest that Beethoven didn't feature too heavily in his repertiore until late on in her career so perhaps this too provides part of an explanation.
regards, Tam
p.s. I am taking Schubert to another thread.
Posted on: 06 November 2006 by Tam
p.p.s. I notice that the
Kempff Beethoven cycle can currently be had on Amazon for £20. Those who haven't sampled his recordings should check it out.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by lplover
Tam,
Have you compared the Kempff mono and stereo cycles? If so, what are your thoughts?
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by Tam
Dear lplover,
I haven't. The Kempff stereo cycle is one of those sets that I have been meaning to pick up for some years (and doubtless one day I will). However, based on his surveys of the concertos (of which I have the 50s mono with van Kempen/BPO and the 60s stereo with Leitner/BPO), since I much prefer the earlier readings (I think there is a degree more spontanaity to his playing), I am in no great hurry to do so.
I'd be interested to hear from anyone here who has done the comparison.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 07 November 2006 by lplover
Thank you Tam. I agree with you about the piano concertos. The mono sonata set has always been my benchmark but I just won a stereo set on eBay and am looking forward to the comparison.
Posted on: 11 November 2006 by Todd A
Regarding Kempff's two cycles: the first is decidedly better than the second, though the second is still superb. In the mono set, Kempff's playing is technically better and the sound is even better. It's among the greatest of all recorded LvB cycles.
--
Posted on: 12 November 2006 by Tam
Lifted from the Schubert thread as it fits a bit better here.
quote:
Originally posted by pe-zulu:
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
as you can't really out-soft Kempff.
Dear Tam
Yes, nobody can out-soft Kempff except Kempff himself. The difference between his two post-war Beethoven cycles is generally, that the mono (1952-55) is more extrovert expressive and the stereo (1962) more soft, stressing the pure beauty of the music, and underplaying the dramatic elements even more than in the mono cycle. I think both sets are well worth knowing. I have never compared the two cycles systematically. BTW I attended Kempff at recital in 1966 (yes, I was very young, but I remember him very well - he was extraordinary) playing four Beethoven sonates, and his interpretation seemed to me even more expressive than the mono, which I (at that time) already knew rather well, at least the sonates he played (15,18,23,24).
You made me begin to relisten to Brendels digital cycle. I got i about 1997 and didn´t like it. I found him affected and contrieved. But after Gilels (and trying to listen with your ears) he is a real relief, offering a personal and well considered reading. I haven´t heard but sonates 4,12,13,14,15,19 and 20 yet, but this is certainly a more impressive reading than his more middle-of-the-road Vox cycle. I understand very well why you prefer more personal interpretations.
Kindest regards, Poul
Dear Poul and Todd,
Thanks for the comments on the Kempff stereo - which make me more than curious and I am sure I will look into it at some point (I am very envious that you got to hear him live).
On Friday the vox box of the variations (ect.) arrived. I've only dipped into it so far (as most of my weekend so far has been spent with Messiaen and Wagner), however I decided to go straight to the op.49/2 sonata (a long time favourite of mine) for a bit of comparison. Actually, I slightly preferred the vox. I suspect a lot of this comes down to Brendel's choice of a slightly brisker tempo, which I think works better. That said, neither reading quite comes close to the Kempff mono which I think is magical. I also think the digital Brendle reading doesn't quite seem to have the sparkle of the finer accounts I've heard on the set so far (the extra-ordinary waldstein is a good example). It's early days yet, but I suspect the rest of the vox will follow.
I'm also particularly glad to have the God Save the King variations (which I enjoyed when they were played as part of Radio 3's wall to wall Beethoven). They're interesting as I tend to find the national anthem a pretty terrible piece of music. On first hearing I thought that Beethoven illustrated just how much could have been done with. But listening on Friday I was struck by just how interesting and beautifully he plays the opening theme, which rather suggests to me the problem is more normally the staggering dullness with which it tends to be played.
regards, Tam