Blue Ray / Panasonic CRT compatibility?

Posted by: Yetizone on 11 January 2009

Hi all.

Calling all AV enthusiasts and guru's...! Smile

I have an old-ish five year old CRT TV and I recently enquired if a BlueRay player can be hooked up to my TV. My local dealer said a resolute NO and pointed me to the new TV's...!

My TV is a Panansonic TX-32PD30, with SCART, Component and L-R Audio Out sockets on the back. So no HDMI connectors.

I know that I will not get HD performance from BlueRay due to the age of the telly. The thing is I was hoping to replace an aging DVD player that is v temperamental with a BlueRay player so that I'm not investing in old media.

Does anyone have any ideas as to a fix or HDMI to SCART cable adaptor type thing or any other solution without having to buy an expensive new TV? Winker
Posted on: 11 January 2009 by TomK
There's a similar discussion going on here.
Posted on: 11 January 2009 by Ron The Mon
Kevin,
A blu-ray player can absolutely be connected to your TV and used as a standard DVD player, with good results too. Simply connect the blu-ray to your TV with the component cables. I find component video connections prefereble to HDMI/DVI anyway if the cables are short runs (under a meter).

To play a blu-ray disc on a standalone player, the TV must have HDCP decoding. Yours doesn't. HDCP is copyright protection which only affects blu-ray playback. You can still watch DVDs, play CDs, play jpegs, MP3s, watch online movies, etc.

You will also get better picture and sound over your current player. The "upconversion" of standard DVDs on most players is stunning. My first impression on my system was that standard DVDs gave me the picture quality I was expecting from blu-ray!

Is your TV integrated with one of your two hi-fis? If so, connect your blu-ray digital out to a Beresford. I have and the sound is spectacular. All blu-ray players have a setup screen which includes connecting the player to a D/A converter uncompressed.

Ron The Mon
Needle-Freak
Posted on: 12 January 2009 by Mike1380
quote:
To play a blu-ray disc on a standalone player, the TV must have HDCP decoding. Yours doesn't. HDCP is copyright protection which only affects blu-ray playback. You can still watch DVDs, play CDs, play jpegs, MP3s, watch online movies, etc.


Err... not quite. HDCP is a handshaking protocol on the HDMI connection... a connection Kevin doesn't have on his screen.

Of course, without HDMI and both devices being HDCP compliant, the BluRay player won't output the image from BD discs in HiDef, and won't upscale the resolution of DVDs either, but they CAN be played.

However - seeing as the screen in question doesn't have the resolution to support that... no problem and nothing lost.

Kevin - just connect using component leads, and if your screen accepts a progressive scan image, set output to 576P - if not, set it to 576i (dependant also on the player's capabilities). However shop carefully as not all BluRay players have component/L+R Audio outputs!

Another thing to note - most BluRay players don't have scart connections - if connecting to a screen without component or HDMI inputs then you may have to revert to S-Video or Composite video leads - which means even BluRay discs will quite likely look WORSE than DVD played via an RGB Scart connection from a decent, non-upscaling, DVD player.

Hope this helps

Mike
Posted on: 12 January 2009 by Ron The Mon
Mike,
In your post, you failed to acknowledge that all the points I addressed from Kevin's original query were in fact true. He can buy any current blu-ray player, connect it via component video cables (and L/R audio) to his TV and he will get picture and sound quality at least equal to his current player. I also took the time to look up the specs on his TV and his system profile; he has a fine TV.

However you are mistaken about several points. First, HDCP is not a handshake protocol for HDMI; it is a handshake protocol for HDCP! If a source is not HDCP encoded, it doesn't need to be HDCP decoded. The only sources using HDCP are DVD-A and Blu-Ray. If you try to play a blu-ray on a non-HDCP TV or computer monitor, nothing plays. However, if you try to play a DVD-A without HDCP it (supposedly) is reduced to "CD" quality sound. I say supposedly because my ears tell me the sound is actually somewhere between CD and HD.

All HDMI inputs are not HDCP and all HDCP are not HDMI! As a simple example, I was comparing the difference in quality of inputs and cables on my Panasonic plasma after I purchased it, to find the "magic" input that produced the best picture. Unfortunately, I couldn't get any blu-ray disc to play from the front HDMI connector on the TV. After a quick Google search, I found only the two rear-mounted HDMI inputs decoded HDCP and the front input doesn't (and this isn't in the owners manual).

You also mention without HDCP, a blu-ray player won't upscale standard DVDs. This is untrue. Upscaling has nothing to do with copyright detection. Upscaling is simply taking advantage of improved HD codecs in the player and improving standard def quality. Those codecs are epecially noticeable on the audio. There are standard DVD players out now that upscale for under $100.

I initially went Blu-Ray for what I thought would be a stunning picture. In most ways I've been disappointed only because the picture quality rarely exceeds my expectations. Where I've been impressed is upscaling of older standard DVD movies; as I stated above, some upscaled DVDs are the quality I expected from blu-ray.

Where I've been really impressed with blu-ray players though is the sound through the Beresford. When I played my first blu-ray disc (Blazing Saddles) and heard the chain-gang barbershop harmony scene, I was stunned. I still can't believe there isn't as much focus on sound as picture. As I've said above, even standard DVDs benefit; my ten-year-old, very-first-ever DVD purchase of Stop Making Sense sounds fantastic! I also now own several DVD-A discs which sound really good.

I also disagree wholeheartedly with your last paragragh; I would much rather have Kevin's TV fed by a blu-ray player (or upscaled DVD player) than a HD plasma fed from a standard def source. And if Kevin's TV sound goes through either of his D/A hi-fis, even more so.


Ron The Mon
Needle-Freak
Posted on: 12 January 2009 by Mike1380
Ron, he can't connect ANY current BluRay player via Component, as some current BluRay players don't have those sockets. I can think of at least one player that ONLY has an HDMI (not even a TOSLINK or COAX digital out to go to a DAC).

Also I never said that HDMI was:
quote:
a handshake protocol for HDMI


I stated that it was:
quote:
a handshaking protocol on the HDMI connection

A bit of a difference, and I know that the HDCP protocol appears on other forms of connection, such as DVI.

My point was that HDCP is not supported by any of the connections on Kevin's TV, and is thus a moot point in HIS case.

I'm not going to get into a contest here, but the simplified facts are as follows:

1) Of all the connections that MAY be found on a current BluRay player, only the HDMI connection has the ability to transmit & receive HDCP handshakes. Thus, if Composite, S-Video or Component are used (as in Kevin's case) the player may (and almost certainly will) refuse to output BluRay in 1080p resolution. Most will, however, downscale the content of a BluRay disc to a 576i signal (from S-Video or Composite) or 576p (from component). Thus the discs will play.

If Ron's assertation (in his original post) that:
quote:
To play a blu-ray disc on a standalone player, the TV must have HDCP decoding.

were true, then it would be pointless to buy a BluRay player until one owned a suitably HDCP enabled TV.


2) In MOST cases, upscaling DVD players, and BluRay players only apply upscaling to standard DVDs on signal output through the HDMI connection.

3) As Kevin's screen physically doesn't have the resolution to show 720P or 1080i/p images, upscaling of DVD images is irrelevant. Even if the screen could understand and downscale these signals when fed them via Component, why involve all the potential problems of processing a signal that the screen CAN display to a much higher resolution it can't show, and thus has to digitally reprocess back down.

Finally, my last paragraph. This was not really for Kevin's situation, more a note that anyone looking at this thread should take heed of, as most folk expect a SCART on all things video orientated. However:
The ascending order of picture quality for analogue video connections is as follows:

Composite & SCART Composite, S-Video & Scart S-Video, RGB SCART, Component Interlaced, Component Progressive Scan.

For someone who has a TV that lacks component inputs, but supports RGB Scart (and there are many screens like this out there) this can be an issue. They would find that having bought a BluRay player whose only outputs were HDMI, Audio L+R, Component Video & S-Video, then that player would be at a disadvantage over their DVD player by not having a Scart socket.

They would be unable to enjoy their previous RGB Scart picture quality, and would have to settle for S-Video or Composite, which are both noticeably inferior.

Hence the potential for both DVD & BluRay from that player to be of lower quality image that DVD from this original player's Scart socket.



Regards

Mike
Posted on: 13 January 2009 by Ron The Mon
Mike,
Your second post is more clear than your first, and I agree with much of it. However,...

I only responded to this thread after remembering Kevin's "System Pics". I relate more to Naits, Minstrels, and Elas far more than quadruple subwoofers. Kevin is also an illustrator; which is code-word for "artist who is married with kids". In other words, his finances are limited but he still demands the finer things in life, especially items with excellent value. I don't picture him buying a blu-ray player over $250.


"Upscaling" does not have anything to do with HDMI per/se. Upscaling is a combination of improved hardware and software (chips and codecs) in the player. The info that is read off the disc (or online)is digital. That information is sent via HDMI (still in the digital domain) direct to the TV where it is played back. Inside the player, those digits are converted to analog via composite, S-Video, and component (there are also the various audio outputs). The "upscaled" component video output will look great on Kevin's Panasonic. Better than a standard DVD player. Forget about specs; hook it up and look at it. I still prefer the video quality of the component video connection over HDMI on my system; again, using half-meter cables.

You implied that buying a blu-ray player without having an HD TV would be a waste of resources. You and I can go back and forth with your wealth of knowledge of 1080p, high-end video and my actual experience with friends, relatives, and my own system of connecting "upscaled" DVD and blu-ray players to standard and low-end HD TVs.

However, there are many other reasons for purchasing a blu-ray player over a standard DVD player today. First, the audio (especially through a good D/A converter) is quite a bit better. Name me even one blu-ray player from two years ago that had dual-mono analog outputs or Burr-Brown devices. Now, some sub $300 players offer them. I have not heard all blu-ray players out there but the ones I've heard sound really good.

From experience I can tell you that CDs and standard DVDs sound improved over a standard DVD player in the same price range. In addition, once you get a HDCP TV, you run the HDMI connection to the TV, them connect the D/A converter to the TV's digital audio output. Not only does this allow you to decode blu-ray and DVD-A but ALL sound quality is further improved.

Speaking of which, I believe all blu-ray players playback DVD-A even if they don't list it. I didn't even consider DVD-A when buying a player and only accidentally found I could play them when a friend brought over a Zappa DVD-A disc. I've since discovered that the going rate for used DVD-A discs locally is about $5. I now own more DVD-As than blu-ray discs. Two Against Nature is astonishing. Fragile, Workingman's Dead (Uncle John's Band was worth the $6.), and many discs I normally wouldn't consider sound great. I bought a sampler for a buck that has Ike and Tina's Nutbush City Limits, and Words by Missing Persons, quite surprisingly good!

Most blu-ray players also connect via ethernet and offer formats only available online. Here in the U.S. several companies sell downloads of movies for rent. You can also download music and still pictures. I attended a Xmas party where the host had a blu-ray player connected to a 30-inch CRT on the floor with draperies over it. The TV was playing a download of an active fireplace. It was a bit kitschy but every person noticed how real it looked and commented.

Several blu-ray players can now download 96/24 songs. Demonseed off the new NIN isn't the best song they've (he's) done but it sounds cool as Hell in hi-def!

Blu-ray discs spin at a much slower rate than DVDs, hence they are quieter. Even while playing standard DVDs and CDs, the drives, in general, are quieter. I have never understood the cult fascination with the Playstation, it is the noisiest piece of junk out there. I can't stand it during quiet passages of a movie when the whirring of a player ruins the scene.

Blu-rays can connect to most newer computers or monitors as many now come HDCP ready or a HDCP video card can be added for less than $40. Kevin could use a laptop as an HDCP interface by taking the HDMI or USB output of the blu-ray player into the laptop, and the laptop outputting to his TV and getting full HD audio via the D/A converter. This would cost less than fifty bucks inluding cables and judicious choice of player.

The new Pioneer blu-ray players also have a feature called "SRC DIRECT". If it's true, then that is indeed a feat worth paying for and must sound phenomenal, and I only hope Gary Quackenbush is compensated accordingly as he's been doing a lot of hustling the past year getting the word out.

Ron The Mon
Needle-Freak
Posted on: 13 January 2009 by Mike1380
quote:
The "upscaled" component video output will look great on Kevin's Panasonic. Better than a standard DVD player. Forget about specs; hook it up and look at it. I still prefer the video quality of the component video connection over HDMI on my system; again, using half-meter cables.

You implied that buying a blu-ray player without having an HD TV would be a waste of resources. You and I can go back and forth with your wealth of knowledge of 1080p, high-end video and my actual experience with friends, relatives, and my own system of connecting "upscaled" DVD and blu-ray players to standard and low-end HD TVs.



Kevin doesn't have an HD TV.
That's why upscaling (even if he could find a UK market palyer that upscales via Component outs) is irrelevant to him at this point in time.

Regardless of the quality of the player and the upscaling circuit onboard, he WILL get a better image feeding standard def images to a standard def TV than if he involves a computer to make up a gazillion pixels out of thin air, and then asks another computer to take most of them away to leave him with a standard def resolution image that the screen can display.

That's even assuming that his TV can accept and downscale 720p, 1080i or 1080p images - which it may not be able to.



Ron, you're a passionate chap. I respect that, and am pleased you are getting so much out of your kit. I too am particularly passionate about vinyl & movies. Sorry to pick you apart, but the facts are what Kevin needed. Thanks to our discussion he now has ALL of them at his disposal.


Kevin, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that you shouldn't buy a BluRay player - but do buy with caution and make sure the player you take home has a Component out, digital audio outs, and Analogue RCA stereo phonos too.... not all will.

Also, be advised - it's pretty difficult to find a player that will play all region DVDs - so if you have any US region 1 discs lurking in your collection, buy very carefully to ensure you'll still be able to play them.


All the best


Mike
Posted on: 15 January 2009 by Yetizone
Dear Ron and Mike,

Thank you very much for all of the advice kindly provide. Very much appreciated. So it does look like I have a solution that will allow me to use a BlueRay player with my aging CRT - contrary to the advice from my local 'pile em high and sell em cheap' TV store.

I'm very relieved that my old CRT is not totally redundant then!

The models I'm considering are either the Panasonic Panasonic DMP-BD35 or 55. Or possibly the Pioneer BDP-51FD. All three have 'component out' sockets on the back, so from what you guys have said they should connect successfully to the 'component in' connection on my TV.

As an alternative stop gap solution: I may have to replace an old temperamental VCR very soon as well. Probably choosing a DVD Recorder with a HDD and Freeview TV Tuner built in (Panasonic DMR-EX78). If I use the component out of the DVD / HDD Recorder, can I expect an improved picture from DVD discs over my (very old) SCART connected DVD player? This could be a viable alternative stop gap while I consider whether we should change to a HD TV. Then simply buy a BlueRay HDMI equipped player at the same time? The only downside being that in the short term I'll only be able to play DVD's and not make the switch to the new media.
Posted on: 15 January 2009 by Mike1380
Kevin,
If your DVD player is pretty ancient then it may only be putting out S-Video through it's scart socket.

If that's so, then the DMR-EX78 sending out RGB over it's scart may well be an improvement. Component may be better than RGB scart, but on your screen you might find the convenience of scart outweighs the picture on component.

The BD-35 connected component should be pretty good too... but the recorder solves two problems, whilst the BD-35 just allows you the option to buy BluRay discs immediately, and wait for the real excitement when you update your screen.


I've seen a BD-35 running and for the money I think it's a very good DVD player, that just happens to be BluRay compatible too. All the extra money on the BD55 really buys you though is an internal surround decoder and a 6 channel output. Picture quality (on any given screen) is the same between these two from what I've witnessed. If you have a home theatre amp with a 6 channel in it might be worth the dosh. If your sound, however, is routed via your TV or a 2channel system, save the money!

Good luck dude

Mike