3 different approaches to speakers manufacturing ?
Posted by: Arye_Gur on 19 August 2001
He told us that there are 3 known different approaches followed by different manufacturers to speakers manufacturing:
1. The minimum component approach, Kef as an example, gives a fast speaker, great involvement, poor tonal balance.
2. Good tonal balance, bad imaging, described as a British and Europaian approach, BBC speakesr (?) was given as example.
3. The American approach, Vanderstien as an example, excelent immaging, poor tonal balance.
(All the examples were only by talking, not by listening to).
I was surprised by this information because as far as I know, the first components to determine
the output of a speaker are the source and the amplifier.
So can you improve bad immaging by a kind of speakers even if the system is not able to do it?
Can you improve timing to a poor system by a kind of speakers ?
Is it any possiblity at all to dramatically improve system abilities with a special kind of speakers, or controlling the system nature with the speakers ?
Arye
quote:
Do you agree with the idea that speakers that are giving a good image are bad for the music ?
Imaging most definitely does NOT kill the music. Some hardcore flatearthers seem to be distracted by a soundstage, but I feel that it adds to the feeling of being close to the performance.
quote:
can you please recommand for me to test speakers that can be no more than 50 c"m away from the walls (I have a small room) and are better than the IBL's in imaging and are not destroying the music ? (and are not too expensive - 1,500 $ or so)
I don't spend much time auditioning speakers in that price range anymore. However, there are some speakers that I'm willing to suggest. Neat Mystiques are actually very good, and should be considered. Definitely take a look at the Epos M15, which I really like. I heard some stand-mounted Sonus Fabers that were OK, but they seemed to have a problem with bass extension. If you don't expect them to go very deep, then they're worth auditioning.
The new Royd R.R.1 is a fantastic little speaker (looks somewhat like the old Minstrel). However, it's rather inefficient, and you might find that your 140 has problems driving it. I've heard them driven by a 102/Hi/NAPSC/250, and I was astonished at how high the volume needed to be, before they started to sing. Of course, I like music pretty loud, and Royd seems to believe that everything from the 150 (and probably 140) should work. They don't recommend using the Nait5 with them, though. It's also a little more money that you want to spend.
I would avoid speakers with a rear-firing port, if you're planning to have it close to the wall. If it has a side-mounted port (like the new Royds), then position the port away from the wall.
BTW, speaking of small rooms and wall proximity, my room is 12x8 feet, and my Albions are a touch more than a foot (i.e. 30cm) from the front and side walls (measured from the wall to the speaker enclosure, not to the center of the woofer).
quote:
CDI, HI/Napsc/102 140 IBL
Since the CDI is supposed to be quite similar to a CDX, you've got one of my favorite "balanced" systems. I've not heard the IBLs, though. The owner of one of the Naim shops here in Toronto has a pair, but they are heavily modified, and therefore are not a good reference. BTW, the guy prefers the sound of the new Royd RR1 over his IBLs.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
I was just thinking about this the other night. I believe electronics have just as much influence on soundstaging.
My old Rega system had crap going on all over the place, deep bass coming from 15 feet behind the front wall and bells going off 10 feet to the right etc...
With the same speakers but a full Naim system, all music comes directly from the speaker boxes with a bit of centre fill for laughs.
BTW, I took a listen to the Epos M15 as per your suggestion, and I agree they're fantastic. They killed Totem Hawks. Unfortunately the dealer was an a**h***. Once I mentioned the words 'home dem' the owner went off on a tirade on how I've never bought from him before so I couldn't be trusted and how he rather turn down "the sale" than give me a home dem.
So, I went to my regular dealer and ordered a pair of Rega Ela. I hope those throw a nice soundstage
BTW, all listening was done with speakers well into the room. I wasn't yet at the stage where I wanted to test that aspect. I believe that a speaker's ability to work near a wall is dependent more on the room than the speaker (for most speakers, anyway). Then there are some, like Kans and most of Naim's offerings, which we are told need to go against the wall.
When it comes down to it, room positioning is exceedingly fickle, and cannot be generalized too much. You won't really know until you get the speakers into your own space, and start to fiddle.
Perhaps Vuk doesn't realize this important aspect of room variability, which may be why he's chosen to be so wrongfully derisive. 
The funny thing is that he's never gone to the trouble of visiting my place, even though I've been to his a bunch of times. I know that he doesn't really like Toronto, but I have a feeling he doesn't want to have his own system shamed by my setup mastery. 
Poor, misguided Vuk. He ran a severely imbalanced CDX/52/250/RaggedTannoys for a long time, before realizing he needed to improve his source and speakers. No wonder he keeps harping about vinyl; he's just trying to distract us from the fact that his system needed work.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
quote:
Originally posted by Alex S:
Should Vuk try CDS2/52 then I think his analogue obsession and disparaging remarks about digital would wane considerably, as would his Mana skyscraper approach.
Vuk has said to me that, after various auditions, he's never been overly impressed by the CDS2's performance (although he does like the Linn CD12). This could be why he's spouting off so vociferously. I would like to take my CDS2 to his place, so that he can do a direct comparison against his beloved P9 in his own environment. Then perhaps he would understand that the CDS2 is a serious front end.
As to his appreciation of Mana sonic effects, this is something that I share with him. It's not a religious experience, but it does provide a significant improvement. Where he and I differ is in its aesthetics: I think it's just plain ugly, and I have the stylistic decency to hide it in the closet. Vuk think's it's OK, as long as you don't stack it too high. I suppose I could pity his misguided sense of taste, but he's too obstinate for that.
So Vuk, when should I come over with my CDS2, and we can try to get this settled once and for all? 
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
quote:
I could pity his misguided sense of taste
Mike,
That’s pretty rich coming from you – my eyes are still smarting from having to look at that horrid old cabinet of yours AGAIN recently.
I’ve never seen Mana in the flesh, but in the right surroundings, most things with a functional appeal can be made to work aesthetically. (Probably applies to speakers as well.)
Thomas
quote:
Could someone please tell me what culture/country a person who writes like this is from?
I come from the land of $25 words.
-=> Mike Hanson <=-