3 different approaches to speakers manufacturing ?

Posted by: Arye_Gur on 19 August 2001

Yesterday there was a stereo forum in a place here, and one of the speakers was a person who supposed to be an expert in speakers manufacturing.

He told us that there are 3 known different approaches followed by different manufacturers to speakers manufacturing:
1. The minimum component approach, Kef as an example, gives a fast speaker, great involvement, poor tonal balance.
2. Good tonal balance, bad imaging, described as a British and Europaian approach, BBC speakesr (?) was given as example.
3. The American approach, Vanderstien as an example, excelent immaging, poor tonal balance.

(All the examples were only by talking, not by listening to).

I was surprised by this information because as far as I know, the first components to determine
the output of a speaker are the source and the amplifier.

So can you improve bad immaging by a kind of speakers even if the system is not able to do it?

Can you improve timing to a poor system by a kind of speakers ?
Is it any possiblity at all to dramatically improve system abilities with a special kind of speakers, or controlling the system nature with the speakers ?

Arye

Posted on: 21 August 2001 by Martin Payne

quote:
Originally posted by Vuk Vuksanovic:
"those who completely eschew soundstage as somewhat daft zealots"
Could someone please tell me what culture/country a person who writes like this is from?
Vuk.

Dunno, but it sounds pretty reasonable to me.

When you get a really good flat earth system these qualities seem to come along for free.

Perhaps not in your case, though.

cheers, Martin

Posted on: 22 August 2001 by Rico

'Arry

your system is pretty well balanced. My rec would be don't lose the IBLs!. If you want to improve the system, feed them better. Better source, better pre, or more juice/control. If you really love the CD-I (as many do) and don't consider anything less than a CDSI or CDSII a contender, then that is the directio to head. IMHO a 250 would not be out of place in your system, in order to provide more grip on the IBLs. Forget mullet in this case, I have heard 102/Napsc/Hi/250 amp comos do good things, and in this case might be more appropriate than an 82 (given no change in front end).

And now Mike's rather amusing posts. Nice one!

quote:
Then there are some, like Kans and most of Naim's offerings, which we are told need to go against the wall.

Mike, they are designed to work against the wall. There is a difference between a requirement due to design paramaters, and an instruction (you should/you must etc). I suspect the apparent indignation you display indicates you're just having a problem after losing the freedom to fly round-earth speakers wherever you like.

quote:
I listened to three SF speakers on Friday. The Concerto, the Grand Piano, and the Amati Homage. The latter two had no problems with bass, whatsoever. However, the bass from the Concertos was pinched, rolled-off and wimpy. I'll give them another listen next time in smaller room, but I don't have high hopes.
....Perhaps Vuk doesn't realize this important aspect of room variability, which may be why he's chosen to be so wrongfully derisive.

errr Mike, haven't you shot yourself in the foot there? The room must have screwed up the Concerto, and you've been derisive of them, and now Vuks just got the room thing all wrong.... oh brother, I'm really confused.

All speakers are ok really, and it's just that they need to find the right room?

quote:
BTW, all listening was done with speakers well into the room. I wasn't yet at the stage where I wanted to test that aspect. I believe that a speaker's ability to work near a wall is dependent more on the room than the speaker (for most speakers, anyway).

Closer, closer, ever closer... I suspect that this is a function of "cardboard walls syndrome" that you are staring to discover. I would tend to agree with you, as long as we exclude wall-proximity speakers from your theory.

quote:

When it comes down to it, room positioning is exceedingly fickle, and cannot be generalized too much. You won't really know until you get the speakers into your own space, and start to fiddle.

Oh, I dunno. SBLs will work given a solid rear wall to sit up against, and a modicum of setup. No black art there, and sod-all fiddling - just listen to the room, "ahhh - they go there - [Jeremy Clarkson closing tone:] and they work. ES11's need a minimum of 12" behind them, in any room - no generalisation. But of course, I agree that in your own room, which of course is the most real environment for a given user, is where the real sound, and the real tuning, starts.

quote:

The funny thing is that he's never gone to the trouble of visiting my place, even though I've been to his a bunch of times. I know that he doesn't really like Toronto, but I have a feeling he doesn't want to have his own system shamed by my setup mastery.

Vuk - go on over and play with Mike. You've clearly offended him by ignoring his hospitality. If he promises not to play Bruce Cockburn, will you pay him a visit soon, please? Mike, perhaps you could drape a pillowcase over the statue, lest it frightens Vuk away. And I'm sure that upon leaving, Vuk will realise the error of his ways, order a CDSII head unit, and ditch the P9 for a Well Tempered reference.

Rico - ok, the Kans are sorted, now whatabout the rainforests?

Posted on: 22 August 2001 by Mike Hanson

I thought I had made it clear that against-the-wall speakers were a special case. (I consider them to be the exception to the rule, and I don't have much experience setting them up.) Beyond that, I thought that several of your comments were misguided.

quote:
I suspect the apparent indignation you display indicates you're just having a problem after losing the freedom to fly round-earth speakers wherever you like.

I've never believed that you could put speakers "wherever you like". In a given room, there is a "best place" for any given set of speakers, with all others being a compromise of some sorts. (Actually, all speakers involve compromise, but I'm not talking about that.)

quote:
The room must have screwed up the Concerto, and you've been derisive of them, and now Vuks just got the room thing all wrong.... oh brother, I'm really confused. All speakers are ok really, and it's just that they need to find the right room?

You've really misread my message there. Regarding the Concerto, they sounded bad when I heard them. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and consider the possibility that it was room and/or electronics making them sound so poor.

Regarding my playful jibe about Vuk's (mis)understanding of room variability, the two paragraphs that you quoted do not follow in my original text. You have misquoted me. Although the inclusion of an ellipsis might have made it clearer, I think it was the obfuscation that you were striving for.

quote:
I suspect that this is a function of "cardboard walls syndrome" that you are staring to discover.

Nope. I'm talking about wall proximity, as it relates to bass response. As the speaker gets nearer to the wall or floor, bass will be louder. That's why Kans have little bass unless they're up against the wall. Flimsy walls will also play a part, although it's a different issue.

quote:
Vuk - go on over and play with Mike. You've clearly offended him by ignoring his hospitality. If he promises not to play Bruce Cockburn, will you pay him a visit soon, please? Mike, perhaps you could drape a pillowcase over the statue, lest it frightens Vuk away.

First of all, I'm not offended. (It's not that easy.) Besides, with my incessant teasing of Vuk's sense of style, I know he'll walk away with a few barbs to lob at me.

quote:
If he promises not to play Bruce Cockburn

Regarding the great Canadian bard, Vuk has already played some for me at his own humble domicile. (It's one of Joe Petrik's favourite tracks.)

quote:
Mike, perhaps you could drape a pillowcase over the statue, lest it frightens Vuk away.

It often frightens children, so covering it with a sheet may be prudent. BTW, I've rechristened the statue "Vuk naked, nuts only finger tight".

quote:
And I'm sure that upon leaving, Vuk will realise the error of his ways, order a CDSII head unit, and ditch the P9 for a Well Tempered reference.

Then he would be following in the steps of Dev, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Posted on: 23 August 2001 by Arye_Gur

Mike,
I tried to take them 30 cm' away from the wall,
and as I remebered in the two rooms at my former appartment, this move kills the sound of the speakers.

They must be with their back close to the wall.

Arye

Posted on: 23 August 2001 by Mike Hanson

quote:
the increase in loudness is localised to a particular band

Which band is that? Black Sabbath?

Actually, it depends on the wavelength. If the positive pressure coming from the speaker is cancelled by the negative pressure bouncing off the wall, then the result is theoretically "no sound" at a particular frequency. As the speaker gets nearer to the corner, the affected frequencies are eliminated. When you are finally "one with the wall", you have maximum bass output (i.e. no cancellation due to near reflections). This is a bit of an oversimplification, but that's the basic premise.

That's why NBLs have their woofers on the sides of the speaker, down year the floor. They get support (versus cancellation) from both the floor and wall.

BTW, the same theory applies to the listener. As you move around the room, you'll notice that areas near most walls and corners are relatively bass-ridden.

This is also why Tube Traps placed in corners work so well: they can dissipate the excess energy both on the way in and out of the corners.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Posted on: 23 August 2001 by Mike Hanson

quote:
In my room and after many months (years even) of experimentation, the bass balance is finally very even no matter where I sit. Previously, there would be a bass black hole in the middle and major boom in every corner.

This is exceedingly rare. From a physics perspective, it's almost impossible to get even bass response thoughout the room, for all frequencies. The best that you can usually shoot for is somewhat even frequency response for a single listening location. Expecting that in all locations of the room is unrealistic, at best.

quote:
I am fortunate that I have space to spare and little domestic constraints.

As you may know, my room is rather small. However, it's dedicated to listening-room status, so that the speakers are never "in the way". It took a little fiddling to get my Albions sounding right in the bass department. After all is said and done, I think they sound much better than they did in my apartment.

I've got some software that outputs and self-measures test tones, to determine things like room response, near-field reflection problems, etc. It can produce frequency response graphs of as many as eight test speaker locations. Then I can examine the graphs, and choose the "flattest" location for the speakers.

Now that I've gotten them as near as possible by ear, I'm going to see if the software will enable me to "improve" on the location. I'm pretty comfortable with their current position, but I may have lost some of my objectivity during my extended trials. The computer solution may add a modicum of absoluteness to my perception.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-