2nd Hand NAP500 !

enjoy

ken

So, if they do have the above gear and a NAP500, why are they selling the 500?

Are they broke, or is it naff?

Cheers

Don

Ciao!

Willem

I wasn't suggesting that this particular NAP500 was faulty. Rather, is the owner in someway dissapointed?.

Cheers

Don

Regards

stephen

Charles

Charlezz, have you compared 135s against 500s in the very same system on the very same day in the same room?

Andrew

Andrew Randle
2B || !2B;
4 ^ = ?;

Check out the product histories at the Naim Audio Main Website, there you will find the list with the serial numbers.

Ciao!

Willem

Charles

quote:

---

I found the 4*135 Nap 135 trully impressive, and the nap500 just as good

---

Naim's entry level gear tends to impress, but has many shortcomings. In particular, it sounds "forced" to my ears. As you move up the ladder, the performance becomes more and more natural.

For example, a 180 has a real sense of snap compared to a 250, whereas the 250 performs with an easy confidence. In the same way, the CDS2 feels exceedingly natural and "right", compared to the CDX. The CDX sounds brash and impressive, but is doesn't flow as easily as the CDS2.

My guess is that you've noticed the same thing between the 500 and 135s. The 500 does things so comfortably, that you may not realize just how good it is. In contrast, the 135s are more punchy and forced. They don't effortlessly disappear like the 500 does.

At least that's my take on the subject.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

You might well be right in suggesting the kit in question is privately imported from Dubai.

I didn't read the ad, but have sometimes wondered at ads that say 'never used' or similar, particulary when its top of a particular range.

Have often thought some rich bloke bought (say)Naim on Friday then heard Krell demo on Saturday and so decided to sell his unused 'top of the range' Naim on Sunday (or vice versa)

Cheers

Don

quote:

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According to me , it is a better choice to buy 4*Nap135 (5000pounds) than a used Nap500.

---

There are many here who have have done the comparison and will tell you that a NAP500 will comfortably outperform six 135's active. Being able to squeeze that kind of performance into a system that would previously have been maxed-out at four 135's is kinda compelling.

Even second hand, the costs involved in an active 135 system are starting to look dubious. At new prices it no longer makes sense, not even in a four-pack system.

The writing must surely be on the wall now for 135s:

- Sales of new 135's in fours or sixes must be about zero.

- Its unlikely that existing 135 passive users wishing to upgrade are going to stump up for two (or four) new 135s + Snaxo + *Cap given the economics and performance benefits compared to switching to a 500

- Sales of new 135's into passive systems must have been stinted on the grounds that (economically, based on the above point) it no longer holds that option of being upgradable to active at a later date

Allan

[This message was edited by Allan Probin on WEDNESDAY 27 June 2001 at 23:33.]

i was expecting to see loads of second hand 135's on the mkt as people upgraded to 500's -- but there dont appear to be that many? perhaps i havent looked hard enough.

i really need to do the passive 135 vs active 500 dem sometime -- whoever does it for me should know i am not in a position to buy a 500 at this point in time -- i just want to map out an optimal future upgrade strategy (what!!!???)

enjoy

ken

[This message was edited by ken c on WEDNESDAY 27 June 2001 at 23:52.]

quote:

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Naim's entry level gear tends to impress, but has many shortcomings. In particular, it sounds "forced" to my ears.

---

Mike,
Am I right that you're referring to 135's when you state in the above 'entry level'!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dunno, give someone a CDSII and 52 and look what happens to them.

Ade

David

quote:

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4*USED nap135 for 5000 pounds (in France)

---

Show me the way please! Blimey, I've been scouring the used ads for 135's for ages and always manage to spot them just after they sell!

quote:

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Its unlikely that existing 135 passive users wishing to upgrade are going to stump up for two (or four) new 135s + Snaxo + *Cap given the economics and performance benefits compared to switching to a 500

---

Not necessarily true Allan ... I have 2 x 135's and can move to 6 x 135's just by splitting three outputs on the 'Cap. My Epos ES30's require no external crossovers. So 6-packing for me (if I could find the 135's) would be more cost effective than a 500.

But before I do anything I'd like to compare and contrast. You say that "many have done the comparison". Where? I don't know many UK Naim dealers that have a 500, let alone 6 x 135's to demo against. If you know differently, please tell me!

I thought the 500 would set many 135's on the 2nd hand market, but it just doesn't seem to be happening. Paul S, has the 500 found a new top end niche market for Naim, in addition to pre-existing NAP sales? Just interested ...

Nap 500's are hugely popular not only with existing Naim customers but with people who have never bought or heard of Naim. This amp has been an enormous success cos it's top.

Later

Doug

A couple of things about what you say:

quote:

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So 6-packing for me (if I could find the 135's) would be more cost effective than a 500.

---

Assuming you stil wanted to go down the 6 135's passive route and were prepared to pay £5000 for another four 135's, you need to compare the cost of that that to the cost of selling your existing 135's and buying the 2nd hand NAP500 in the example we are talking about here. I don't know how old your 135's are, but lets assume for round numbers sake (and being conservative given that you are prepared to pay £2500/pair) that they are worth £2000. That means your choice is either £5000 for four more 2nd hand 135's or £5800 for swapping to the 2nd hand NAP500. Given that the difference is only £800 I'm astonished that you would consider this a cost effective solution !!! I'm assuming you are supporting Charlezz's point here about 4*135's 2nd hand vs the 500 2nd hand. Not comparing 2nd hand prices with new. Although even comparing cost of buying 2nd hand 135's vs a new 500 the difference still isn't that great (compared to total system cost) and still probably represents better value for money and long-term investment (if you've got 6*135's you'll probably give-in eventually, sell them all and get a 500).

quote:

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You say that "many have done the comparison". Where?

---

Chris Bell
Geoff Cottle
Bob Edwards
Joel Benford

plus, I think a few months back there was a thread very close to this topic. Can't remember now exactly if it was "135's active vs NAP500" or something like "DBLs or a NAP500". Anyway, I remember quite a few impressions of the qualities of the 500 being expressed. If you keep an eye on the Forum, these kind of comments keep rolling in.

quote:

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I thought the 500 would set many 135's on the 2nd hand market, but it just doesn't seem to be happening.

---

My dilema - if an opportunity to buy another pair of 135's really cheaply came up, do I take it (and go active with SBLs) or do I resist temptation and hold out for as long as possible and go for a 500.

Allan
(taking it all far too seriously - its hardly life and death. ...is it ?)

[This message was edited by Allan Probin on THURSDAY 28 June 2001 at 16:30.]

Do Naim have an official line here?? I know they will probably say that both have there merits etc etc ( which is true - ask Ken c! )

Cheers
Goose

quote:

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2 years ago at the Bristol show I think I recall hearing Douggie (sp??) say that they favoured one NAP 500 to the six pack??

---

I also think I recall DG saying this, both on the Saturday and the Sunday at Bristol 2000. However, it was some time ago, and the "official line" may have changed.

FWIW, I also thought that the passive CDSII/52/SuperCap/500/DBL on Hutter system demonstrated that year worked a bit better than the active CDSII/52/SuperCap/SNAXO/SuperCap/3 x 500/DBL on Fraim demonstrated this year. Same room each year, so differences were down to varying mains (Rega were on the same floor this year -- relevant? Who knows!), Fraims rather than Hutter, and a small matter of about UKP27,000 in additional boxes. That they were close is an indication of how sensitive stuff at this level can be.

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

quote:

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Am I right that you're referring to 135's when you state in the above 'entry level'

---

If you look at my larger statement, my intent is clear:

quote:

---

Naim's entry level gear tends to impress, but has many shortcomings. In particular, it sounds "forced" to my ears. As you move up the ladder, the performance becomes more and more natural.

---

I certainly don't think of the 135 as "entry level"! Instead, I'm saying that it's not as natural as the 500. In the same way, the 135 sounds more natural than a 250, which is better than a 180, 140, 110, and 90. The 90 sounds like a brash little punk compared to the 500.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

quote:

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The market seems just about the same as it ever was, prices are holding and as Doug says, 2nd hand units still sell very quickly.

---

Perhaps it has something to do with perceived price limits. When the 135 was the "best" amp, it represented the upper price limit. When I got my 250 over a year ago, it was with the expecation that I would probably never go for something as expensive as the 135s.

Now that the 500 is available, the price of a pair of 135s seems like pocket change. Here I am considering a pair of 135s as my next upgrade step, while thinking that the 500 is out of reach.

So the 500 is being sold to those who always buy the best and can afford it. Meanwhile, the 135s are going to people who formerly thought they were too expensive.

Maybe Naim will release a NAP800 so that I can justify the cost of a 500.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

quote:

---

I also think I recall DG saying this, both on the Saturday and the Sunday at Bristol 2000. However, it was some time ago, and the "official line" may have changed.

---

He actually said that in his opinion the 500 was better than a six-pack. That is different from an 'official line'. I dare say Naim couldn't care less what you buy as long as it is electrically safe, electronically compatible, you enjoy it and were given the resources to do a reasonable evaluation of any options.

FWIW I prefer the 500 to 6 X 135s when used with DBLs.

wow, i am not sure my views are any more valid than anyone else's here. but from my limited experience, the differences i noted between my previous passive and now active system are so musically fundamental that i am tempted (perhaps incorrectly) to extrapolate that an active system will always be better than the equivalent passive system. but i cant extrapolate that a passive 250 system is worse than an equivalent active 140 system for example (i am sure someone has done this dem??) although i would kind of suspect so. for me the most ear-openning experience was auditioning active 250 vs passive 135 -- where to my ears the active 250 won hands down. of course, one is not suggesting that active 140 is better than passive 135 or, god forbid, 500!!!

there is definitely a point at which better kit will sound better, active or passive. that is, there is a point at which the active advantage is overtaken by better design -- in this case of power amps.

we need as many people as possible reporting their own experiences -- what will emerge is something we already know -- one man's meat, etc etc...

enjoy

ken

quote:

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I understand what you are saying, you are talking about passively tri-amping your speakers.

---

Essentially, yes. There are three signal outputs available from a Supercap. I could use each one to drive a pair of 135's and feed the signal to the ES30 drivers. AFAIK there is just one capacitor in line with the tweeter. Every other driver is directly linked, and uses the build of the voice coil and the mechanics of the driver itself as a form of filter.

Now I've yet to hear this in action, and if I could find a dealer with a 500, 4 x 135's, then I would pay the Chord Co. to knock up the cables and try it out!

I'm guessing that most 500 vs 135 demos referred to are done with passive 500 vs. active 135's. In the latter case, the SNAXO adds more electronics to the mix which empirically has to degrade the sound. I'm lucky in that my speakers do not need any sort of crossover. So I'm extrapolating that my form of 6-pack will sound better than a full active 6-pack as there are less elecrtonics in the way ... but I have no proof.

As for the costs ... my 135's are about 15 years old so not worth that much. And I can buy 135's in pairs so I can spread the cost. Unless Naim would like to sell me a 500 with 50% down and 50%, say, in two years!

It's all kind of a pipe dream anyway. I would want to dem this first, if at all possible, and Mr. Naim may say no to using three outputs on a Supercap to drive 6 x 135's