First "Classical" Piano Pieces.

Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 28 August 2005

Dear Friends,

In the Hifi Corner discussion recently turned towards torturing programmes for amps, ans as it was one of my Threads (A Thought To Good Not To Share.), things soon enough veered from the Hifi to music! One or two folk wanted some recomendations for good introductory works played om the piano, in the classical repertoire - a huge areas of course - and so I will suggest a few things and perhaps some others would like to post their own favourites, which also fulfill the need to be fine "as introductory music in the classical way" played on the piano.

Erik Satie: Three Gymnopedes. (Naxos have a good Satie recital out at budget price).

Greig: Any thing! Greig was a great miniaturists, and his most beautiful efforts were wrttien for the piano and generally for amateurs to play. The Sonata is much harder to grasp at first. (Again Naxos have a superb series of the complete piano music under way).

Chopin: Walzes. Lipatti on EMI, is a fine starting point here though the recording is mono. I hope some will broaden the Chopin recomendations here. It is a real black hole for me, and could hardly be less like nold JSB!

Liszt: The Sonata (in B minor?) contains the famous Funeral March. Again I hope some who enjoy the romantic repertoire will broaden this. It really is NOT my favourite area.

Beethoven: The named Sonatas are all good value as a starting point, with the thought that the Hammerklavier is definately not a starting point! oncce you start on this you will definately proceed over the years to investigate the whole 32 Sonatas, but I would suggest also looking at the Piano Concertos. Stephen Bishop Kovasovich made a superb set in the 1960s with Colin Davies, which is permannently in the catalogue. Not only is iit, by now in the budget price bracket, but the set is still among the very best.

Schubert: Impromtus. Get Perahia. This is splendid, and will cause you to get further into Schubert. The Marches miltaires are splendid fun ( and not the least military!) as well. My favourites here are Schnabel, Artur and Karl Ulrich - father and son respectively, who make a wonderful duo - and the 1930's recordings are surprisingly fresh. Actuallly both Schnabel and Edwin Fischer made absolutely winning sets of the Impromtus as well, done in 1950 and 1938 respectively, so you may want to take a view on the old recording as compared to the modern very fine digital for Perahia... Of course this barely scratches the surface of Schubert's output for piano. Of the sonatas the big on in B flat D 960 is splendid as a more demanding starting point, and here I would recomemnd Clifford Curzon on Decca.

Haydn wrote a huge quantity of piano Sonatas, and they are a ceasely source of fascination to me. The best thing if you have enough determination is to get McCabe's set on Decca, but the scale of it may be offputting. It does contain amongst the best keyboard performances on record of this charming, beautiful music, which actually is just as profound at times as anything by Beethoven or Schubert, but always in relatively short (10 or 21 minutes usually) pieces.

Mozart: I have never quite got the same pleasure from these Sonatas (as a whole) as I do from Haydn, but they6 are plentifully available. The Turkish Rondo is the Finale to the Sonata in A major, KV 331. This will as fine an entry point as eny in my view. Also there is a charming set of variations on what is known in the Anglo-phone world as Twinkle, Twinkle Little star..." called Twelve Variations on, "Ah, vous diria-je Mamoan." Look out Haskils performance (in stereo!) on DG, which is coupled with the piano Concertos Nos 13 and 20. Thirteen is charming, while 2o is terrifying in musical terms. The time when the content almost bursts the classical framework with its intensity.

Bach: Now I have general problem with the iano in Bach, even though others will consider it the instrument of choice, I still retain the view that mostly Bach goes better on the Harpsichord. So I shall be very specific in the performances here, as these really are fine, and transcend the fact they arfe on the wrong instrument! Saint Anne Prelude and Fugue, in E flat (arr Busoni) played by Edwin Fischer (on Pearl and recorded in 1934). Partita Number One in B flat played by Dinu Lipatti on EMI and recorded in 1950. This last is a recording of a selection of Bach, Scarlatti, Mozart and Schubert, which ought to be obtained as it will give pleasure to anyone with an ear to hear! EMI have it out in the Great Recording Of The Century series at the moment, so my older transfer number will not help! This I think will be among the finest starting points!

I hope other will broaden the above recomendations, and really I hope people will refrain from general compare and contrast type discussions, and stick to "their " favourite introductory piano recordings, to help other dip thier toes, as it were, into this lovely and most varied field.

Sincerely, Fredrik Fiske
Posted on: 28 August 2005 by u5227470736789439
sorry about the multitude of typo-disastes above, but it still makes sense. Fredrik
Posted on: 28 August 2005 by Tam
Okay, for me the master of classical piano has always been Beethoven. And for playing Beethoven I can't think of anyone to beat the late, great Wilhelm Kempff. His complete cycle of sonatas from the 50s (on DG in mono) is wonderful. His later recordings, while in stereo, aren't quite so spontaneous. Solomon's recordings on Testament (also mostly mono) are also superb.

I must differ with Fredrik on Mozart. In my view, Mitsuko Uchida's recordings (now available at budget price on philips) are out of this world, and remain, in my view at least, by far and away the best thing she's ever done. The final movement (the Turkish march) of the K331 is a particular favourite of mine (though it's disappointing when almost anyone else plays it).

I'm also a great fan of much of Chopin's piano music. Be warned though, a disc of, say, the waltzes can start to sound a little repetitive. Highlights are the two sets of Etudes, the 24 preludes and the wonderful nocturnes. I picked up a complete set (some 13 discs) for a song many years back, with Vladimir Ashkenazy at the keyboard. However, I've come to echo Todd's comment on his Beethoven, that Ashkenazy, while technically very good, is something of a safe choice. I have heard some of Hewitt's nocturnes on hyperion and they were stunning. One final note, Fredrik mentioned the B flat sonata containing the funeral march, ascribing it to liszt, in fact it comes from Chopin's second sonata.

As far as Bach goes, I don't know his piano stuff to well. I love the goldberg variations, and in particular Glenn Gould's 1980s set (though these, due to Gould's singular style and singing along, are not for everyone). I'm not a big fan of the Well Tempered Clavier, though that may be because Gould's interpretation didn't do it for me, and I do mean to try someone else's.

My last great master of piano music would have to be Schubert. In particular (as Fredrik suggested) the D960 sonata. Again my favourite is Kempff (and I have 6 recordings, including the Curzon). Brendel and Perahia are also very good though, as is Curzon. I have Horowitz playing it too, and while you wouldn't necessarily realise he's in his seventies, it isn't the greatest recording he ever did. I have the complete sonatas by kempff (seven very good discs) and also by Uchida (also very good, though if I had to pick one it would be Kempff, that said, Uchida's playing is very fine).

I should also at in Horowitz, a great concert pianist, notorious for his retirements (and subsequent returns) to the concert platform. Sony have a wonderful box in their 'original jacket' series, which (apart from their lovely packaging) are now available at a sensible price. The Horowitz set contains some wonderful recordings, in particular his Chopin second sonata. His Scarlatti recordings are also the best around. His late DG recordings are stunning, not least because it's impossible to believe he's as old as he was when he made them.


regards,

Tam
Posted on: 28 August 2005 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:

[...].

As far as Bach goes, I don't know his piano stuff to well. I love the goldberg variations, and in particular Glenn Gould's 1980s set (though these, due to Gould's singular style and singing along, are not for everyone). I'm not a big fan of the Well Tempered Clavier, though that may be because Gould's interpretation didn't do it for me, and I do mean to try someone else's.

regards,

Tam


Dear Tam,

I think the problem with Bach on the piano is two-fold, and certainly neither 48 nor the Goldbergs are atarter repertoir! Firstly Bach is terribly difficult to bring off on the piano. Very few of the great pianist actually recorded very much of the solo keyboard music, because the effects are counter to the dynamic and phrasing requirements of music designed for the harpsichord. So those pianist who succeed in conquering a huge hurdle are indeed small, and it requires a very particular understanding to get performances that stand up to repeated listening as a result. Also, I have yet to be convinced that Gould ever really did other than use the music he played for much beyond a clever (intelectual) way of saying, "Look at me; I can play the piano like no one else!" Bach's spirit and message hardly enter into it, and the actual notes become the basis for an entirely new and completely unrelated revelation to the one Bach had, which is fine so long as no one comes away thinking that this is real Bach playing or really a representation of Bach's (rather clear actually) intentions.

There have been Threads on this before, and if I am not careful I shall be accused of all alsorts of things like being a purist and an elitists. So I shall say no more of Gould!

Sincerely, Fredrik
Posted on: 28 August 2005 by Tam
Fredrik,

Quite right. I don't Gould isn't for starters (and so I shouldn't really have put him in the thread!). However, I'd dispute that the Goldbergs aren't, I think they're really beautiful are hard to dislike.


regards,

Tam
Posted on: 28 August 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

I'd say that the Goldbergs are second round, to be tried once you adore some of the more public music, but I do agree that I never had any problem with them as a younster, and once with you you will never tire of them! Truely wonderful music. Bo you know the set played by Piere Hantii on Opus 111. And on the piano I adore Tatyana Nicholayeva, and heard I her live about twenty years ago (heavens it is more like thirty years ago!). That is on Hyperion.

Fredrik
Posted on: 28 August 2005 by bazz
Thanks for the interesting and informative post Fredrik. I have the Philips Mitsuko Uchida set of Mozart's Sonatas, which are my desert island discs, and a 2 disc live recording of some of those pieces. I also have her 8 disc Schubert set and I agree with Tam that it's not up to the same standard, but still good. I enjoy Maria Joao Pires work on Erato as well. Also have several sets of the Beethoven sonatas, the most recent being an Australian recording by Gerard Williams on a Stuart and Sons piano, (made I believe in Tasmania!) which is quite spectacular .

I'm very fond of Angela Hewitt's recordings of the Goldberg Variations and the Fantasia and Fugue in A minor. Nibbled around the edges of Chopin but never really been sure where to start.

I'll pick up the Naxos Satie disc you mention today and keep a look out for the Grieg.
Posted on: 28 August 2005 by Todd A
Piano for starters. Some tough choices, but:

Bach

Goldberg Variations, Perahia or Schiff (ECM)


Beethoven

Late Sonatas, Pollini
Diabelli Variations, Serkin
Complete cycle, Annie Fischer or Kempff (mono) or Gulda (Amadeo) or Backhaus (mono)


Chopin

Etudes, Pollini
Ballades, Zimerman
Scherzos, Pogorelich
Nocturnes, Moravec
Mazurkas, Rubinstein


Debussy

Preludes, Michelangeli or Gieseking
Etudes, Gieseking (EMI)
Images, Moravec or Michelangeli
Estampes, Gieseking


Janacek

All - Firkusny


Mozart

Sonatas – Walter Klien or Schiff


Prokofiev

Any – Richter


Ravel

Gaspard de la nuit, Pogorelich
Any others, Gieseking or Casadesus


Schubert

D664 – Richter
D784 – Klien, Kempff
D845 – Pollini, Klien
D850 – Andsnes (a knock-out recording)
D894 – Klien, Kempff, Volodos
D958 – Richter
D959 – Kovacevich
D960 – Kovacevich, Richter, Klien, Kempff


Schumann

Carnaval, Michelangeli (EMI), Cortot
Symphonic Etudes, Pollini
Kreisleriana, Lupu or Pollini
Papillons, Kempff
Sonata Op 14, Pollini
Fantasie, Richter or Gieseking


Szymanowski

Masques & Metopes – Piotr Anderszewski



--
Posted on: 29 August 2005 by graham55
Fredrik

As Tam has pointed out, the "funeral March" sonata is Chopin's Second Sonata, a wonderful piece.

My favourite ever recording is by Emil Gilels, recorded in New York in 1955, and therefore in (v good) mono sound. Now reissued on Testament.

If you must have stereo sound, Pollini and Argerich (both on DGG) produce formidable results.

In fact, you should really have all three!

Graham
Posted on: 29 August 2005 by Tam
As it's come up a few times, many of the great recordings of solo piano music are in mono. While I generally prefer a stereo recording, for solo piano it isn't too much of drawback. Indeed, many of the great mono recordings are so good you quite forget.


regards,

Tam
Posted on: 29 August 2005 by u5227470736789439
Tam is absolutely correct about mono for the piano!

Thanks for your contributions. The piano repertoire is by no means my first area of understanding. I know parts of it wery well. And other hardly at all.

Fredrik

PS: I forgot and no one mentioned the Moments Musiceaux by Schubert and the Brahms Intermezzi (and other short things) opus 117 and 119.
Posted on: 29 August 2005 by Tam
I wouldn't claim that extensive a knowledge of the piano repertoire. Next to Todd, I feel very ignorant!


regards,

Tam
Posted on: 29 August 2005 by graham55
For anyone wanting a "starter kit" in Beethoven piano music, I'd have to recommend a bargain price 6CD set by Stephen Kovacevic on Philips. It includes all the concertos (with Colin Davis conducting), many of the sonatas, incuding the last three (but not the Hammerklavier) and, not least, his mighty recording of the Diabelli Variations.

Snap it up while you can, people!

Graham
Posted on: 29 August 2005 by jayd
Fredrik,

Oddly enough, I essentially followed the path you describe when I recently started delving into classical piano. It was entirely by accident. As I recall, the first five I tried were Satie, Chopin, Grieg, and Beethoven as you mention, with Debussy thrown in because I'm a fan. Next I tried Bach but didn't like it on piano; tried on harpsichord, but the sound of that instrument is annoying to me, so I have foregone Bach for now. I also strayed into Rachmaninoff and got scared. Winker

Looks like Schubert and Liszt are the next logical steps.
Posted on: 29 August 2005 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by jayd:
Fredrik,

... Next I tried Bach but didn't like it on piano; tried on harpsichord, but the sound of that instrument is annoying to me, so I have foregone Bach for now. I also strayed into Rachmaninoff and got scared. Winker

Looks like Schubert and Liszt are the next logical steps.


Dear Jay,

Smile. Rachmaninov scares me too. you will come round to Bach on the harpsichord eventually! Cool

But schubert will remain a life's love in all probability. Whether old Liszt will last as long, I don't know Confused!

Fredrik
Posted on: 30 August 2005 by Jim Waugh
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:

I must differ with Fredrik on Mozart. In my view, Mitsuko Uchida's recordings (now available at budget price on philips) are out of this world, and remain, in my view at least, by far and away the best thing she's ever done. The final movement (the Turkish march) of the K331 is a particular favourite of mine (though it's disappointing when almost anyone else plays it).



regards,

Tam


Tam,
Don't you think Uchida's playing is a bit wimpy. I find her andante's in Mozart and Schubert too feminine for my tastes. As for Mozart give Christoph Eschenbach a listen.

Jim
Posted on: 30 August 2005 by Tam
Jim,

Not in the slightest. In fact, I find her playing wonderfully lyrical and beautiful. Interestingly, I was at an edinburgh festival concert yesterday featuring the k330 and 332 sonatas (played by lars vogt) and found the playing rushed and overly 'clinical'. I spent most of the time longing for something more like what Uchida does. Interestingly, I haven't been so totally sold by her interpretations of other composers (especially her recent schubert which was somewhat patchy).


regards,

Tam
Posted on: 30 August 2005 by ClaudeP
I love Haydn piano sonatas, played by "good old" Alfred Brendel.

I thought they deserved to show in this thread...
Posted on: 31 August 2005 by u5227470736789439
At last someone else who loves Haydn's Sonatas, Claude! They are wonderful and I never tire of them, and they are unfamilliar in the way of the Mozart's so that adds to the fun!

Fredrik
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by bjorne
To my ears Rachmaninov is not scary but can be a bit syrupy. There is a very beautiful version of his 2nd piano concert with Arthur Rubinstein from the late 1950's iirc. Easily the best version I have heard. I also have one or two cd's from Naxos with Rachmaninovs smaller piano works, very nice.

I also find Chopin's piano concerts very nice.
Posted on: 01 September 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Bjorne,

What I find scary about Rachmaniniv, is not the beautiful sounds or even even some wonderful melodies, but rather the exremity of the Romanticism! Speaking as a person who musical loves are firstly old JSB, and then secondly old Joseph Haydn, followed by Beethoven and Schubert, so rather more sinple in outline than the tremendous Romanticism of Rack!

Fredrik
Posted on: 14 April 2006 by lplover
I love piano sonatas, even more so since I replaced by Isobariks with Quads last year. My personal favorites (all on LP of course):

Beethoven - Kempff (DG mono)
Schubert - Haebler on Philips (and Kempff on DG)
Mozart - Haebler on Philips
Haydn - McCabe on Decca
Posted on: 14 April 2006 by kuma
Fredrik,

No Ravel's piano work, eh?

I am not a regular classical listener, ( I've ODed on it when I was a kid playing those things ), but I found his piano work better than his orchestral work.
Posted on: 14 April 2006 by fred simon


I don't agree at all with the prevalent opinion here that Bach doesn't make it on piano. On the contrary, having played, and listened to, a lot of Bach on piano, my strong conviction is that if the pianoforte had been around in Bach's time, he would have been delighted with how his music sounded with its expanded expressive palette (compared to the clavier, etc.).

Fred


Posted on: 14 April 2006 by fred simon


I recommend piano music by these composers:

Bach
Handel
Scarlatti
Mozart
Haydn
Beethoven
Brahms
Schumann
Schubert
Mendelssohn
Chopin
Grieg
Satie
Ravel
Debussy
Mompou
Scriabin
Copland
Hindemith
Bartok
Bloch
Shostakovich

Fred


Posted on: 15 April 2006 by Tam
I don't think there was a consensus against Bach on the piano, more against Gould's interpretation, particularly those starting out. Since my posts, I picked up Barenboim's cycle of Well Tempered which I've enjoyed very much. That said, I also heard some harpsichord Goldbergs recently, and there is a lot to be said for it that way.

regards, Tam