Dac brief encounter

Posted by: Keith L on 31 December 2009

I have the Naim Dac on home loan over the New Year holiday. I’ve had a few hours to try it out with my setup, 282, 250.2, Allae, nSub

The options on offer are:-

Cyrus CD8/HiLine
Cyrus CD8/DC1/Naim Dac/HiLine
Cyrus CD8/DC1/Lavry D10/Canare

SB3/DC1/Naim Dac/HiLine
SB3/DC1/Lavry D10/Canare

MacBook Pro/Naim Dac/HiLine
MacBook Pro/Lavry D10/Canare

iTouch into USB socket.

Firstly with the CD8 my preference lies with the Naim Dac, followed by no outboard dac, then the Lavry. The Naim Dac opens the soundstage and is slightly less forward than the bare CD8. Whether or not this widening of the soundstage is natural is questionable? The CD8 with Lavry is duller than without outboard dac and is without the Naim Dac’s widening of soundstage.

Surprisingly the SB3/Naim Dac didn’t seem to improve much on my existing Lavry setup.

The MBP option was behind the SB3. The sound was much leaner and bass extension was limited. Maybe my 3m optical lead was clouding the issue. I tried ALAC and AIFF files and a few 96/24 bit downloads. None was particularly grabbing. The HD led lights up when the midi setting is at 96khz, even if the material is only 44.1.

The iTouch USB socket was disappointing. In the context of the above options it fell well short.

Obviously these are only initial findings and are very limited to what I have available. I couldn’t try the Dac with an external ps. My xps2 went a long time ago with the departure of my cdx2. The above options are probably representative of what many users have amassed over the recent years. My streaming options of SB3 or MBP are now old hat with the advent of the popular Linn streamers.

Apart from the sound there are some really nice touches. You can control an iPod using Apple’s remote, the one you get with a MacBook Pro. This is very rudimentary, only controlling next, previous, pause and play. Pressing menu doesn’t respond. It plays ALAC files straight from my iTouch.

The standard Naim preamp remote on 7, 8, 9 & 0 will select the Dac front inputs 1, 2, 3 & 4. If an input has both coax and optical, it will automatically select the one playing. USB inputs override other inputs, with the front socket having priority over the rear.

Will the Naim Dac replace my Lavry? It’s too early to call. If I used several digital sources, I wouldn’t hesitate. It’s a great digital hub and integrates well with Naim amps. At the moment I don’t need a digital hub and rarely stray from the SB3 or CD8.

What is very apparent in my setup is that Naim Dac gains over the Lavry are miniscule compared to gains had from slight changes in speaker position or Preamp changes. These have far more effect on the system than small tweaks with my digital front end.

I’ll add to this after the holidays.

ATB Keith
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by pylod
thank you for the nice reading keith...

i was wondering, when the first naim dac / lavry comparisons will come in...

i bought my lavry last x mas. after a home demo my cds2 went for sale...i was actually a happy listener. discovered additionally internet radio and so on....no need for an xps, no need for this and that.simple an half size small box..great Smile...

then this war started here on the forum, resulting in almost all lavry threads beeing deleted...

when the naim dac was announced i sold my lavry, not knowing, that the launch will be delayed until end of 2009. in the mean time i was a happy vinyl listener. everyday at least 6 hours of records stimulated my ears ...

now the first demo writings of the new dac coming in. almost everyone is mentioned the huge update of the cd5xs and cdx2.2 and of course the hdx created by connecting the dac.not mentioning the update with an 555ps.i see it already coming. at least an extra fraim tower need to be set up to hold up the intergalactic 3 box... device ?

i don´t want a cd player anymore. space is short and i need to get rid of my cd´s.
streaming from a computer device is the way to go for me ( i would choose a hdx as a standalone box ,but the capacity of the internal discs is just ridiculous small for such a player. yes, yes i know i have mentioned this before. and no, i don´ want anymore cables or external boxes like a nas or external discs )

did the naim dac, connected to the computer improve over the quite reasonable lavry ? will it maybe just leave the wish to improve it with an external 555 PS ( no no the xps or xps2 is not really good enough here !!! ) instead of living in peace with music.

so where does the naim dac connected to the computer stand ?...cdx2 or cds3 level ? was the lavry not there one year ago ?
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by Keith L
quote:
did the naim dac, connected to the computer improve over the quite reasonable lavry ?


My MacBook Pro is not a source I find convenient to use. I'll try again with a shorter optical cable.
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by pylod
quote:
Originally posted by Keith L:
quote:
did the naim dac, connected to the computer improve over the quite reasonable lavry ?


My MacBook Pro is not a source I find convenient to use. I'll try again with a shorter optical cable.


if the mac book isn´t, what will ? will we in the end buy a naim cd player to update the dac ? and and up with a cd player again ?
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by Keith L
quote:
if the mac book isn´t, what will ?


I prefer to use my MacBook for other things rather than to stream music while tethered by an optical cable (streaming via AE definitely degrades the sound). That's why I like using the SB3, which incidentally is sounding very good with the Naim Dac as I post this.
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by pylod
i remember to have archived very good results, as many other here,with my power book and a n optical cable into the lavry...the naim dac needs to improve that for the money.if it just improves existing cd players or the hdx ( what it certainly will ) ,it is maybe no use to change the lavry.
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by adymcd
I was really hoping for a big improvement over the Lavry, I too sold mine two months ago with great expectations.

I suppose when New Year is out of the way I will home dem the Ndac and see what it is like. Just hope I don't end up buying another Lavry!
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by matt303
I'll be listening to the Naim and Lavry DACs against my DacMagic early in the new year (once recovered from having my gall bladder out next week). I feed the DM from a Squeezebox 3 so your comments are interesting, the only downside of the Naim or Lavry is the lack of usb which my girlfriend likes to use with her laptop, but a usb->SPIDF interface shouldn't be expensive.
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by js
As usual interface, file type and rip can come into play here. I'd recommend AIff, XLD rips and an interface like the HiFace etc for a MAC laptop and have it plugged into the wall. Some of this may have been done here. Haven't heard Amarra but reports are that there's more good with it also. Less in will cause less difference out. In this case, the MAC was at times processing by upsampling the source signal and also some lossless ALAC files for more processing. Reduce load and buffers for best results. I'd also try to get a good, quieter original clock outside the computer and try to find a decoupling hard wire interface. I know this doesn't necessarily jive with what some here have liked via ALAC,tos,Itunes but for me personally, it's a clear compromise. When trying new kit, optimize for it to understand what it's capable of. You can't just plug something into a compromise because the previous piece didn't benefit from better surroundings. I don't find it at all surprising that the most differences were from the CD player and in this case seemimgly significant. It was the best source. SB3 was second best here for the OP and it's known to have a mediocre dig out. Even Sonos is better from what I've heard. In this case the MAC as configured was the 3rd best as source with either DAC yet the preferred source for many here. All this means is that you have to come up with your own observations because if you go with this evaluation, all those with MACs would need to also conceed that the source just isn't good enough Winker. Of course you don't need to agree but then another listen would still be in order and your results may vary with the stock Mac pro. Smile

I'm a bit surprised by the touch as I thought it pretty good when streaming but all of the observations are valid in context which isn't a bad one at all. Just adding my perspective of context and not disagreeing with the observations themselves from a nicely done comparison. Not bashing the review here at all. Thanks Keith.
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by Keith L
One thing that is becoming more and more obvious is the width of the soundstage with all sources. I commented on this at the August factory tour where Pink Floyd's "Wish you were here" seemed to be projected in an almost holographic way. I asked whether this had something to do with the DSP knowledge from working with Bentley. I was assured there is no extra DSP going on in the Ndac. Assurances aside, there is extra width. I'm beginning to like it. The sound stage kind of envelops you rather than being pin point accurate. At the same time there's no loss of detail.

I think you can tell; it's growing on me!
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by js
I didn't find the perspective wider than the Nagra playing an original file natively. Perspective was almost identical with HDX/DAC. It is open but definitely not artificial. Curious how you find it after a week and try without again.
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by Keith L
I don't have it for a week. It goes back to the dealer this Saturday morning.

For the record:
HiLines are RCA to Din
DC1 is RCA to RCA
Canare is XLR to Din
no PowerLines
fed by separate 6mm mains with 10 unswitched Crabtree sockets
3m optical lead is a cheapo from Maplins
0.9m optical is a cheapo from ???
rips are bog standard iTunes ALAC or AIFF
iTouch was playing back ALAC
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by likesmusic
Keith - is it worth making sure that all non-necessary equipment is unplugged when you are listening to the DAC? It might be that (cheap-switched mode) power supply noise (say) from your Squeezebox (say) is finding it's way into the DAC and upsetting it. Good to read your findings btw.
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by Keith L
I use a regulated linear supply for the SB3.
It's playing Fleet Foxes at the moment and sounding sublime.
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by likesmusic
quote:
Originally posted by Keith L:
I use a regulated linear supply for the SB3.
It's playing Fleet Foxes at the moment and sounding sublime.


Obviously if you're listening to the SB3 you have to have it on! I was meaning more to turn off the things you weren't listening to at any particular moment - such as the Lavry - as the naim DAC might be upset by electrical noise from such sources.
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by PMR
quote:
Originally posted by Keith L:
What is very apparent in my setup is that Naim Dac gains over the Lavry are miniscule compared to gains had from slight changes in speaker position or Preamp changes. These have far more effect on the system than small tweaks with my digital front end.

I’ll add to this after the holidays.

ATB Keith
Good comparison!

Was there any reason for not using the HiLine cable with the Lavry? Also, do you feel your MacBook is behind the SB3 when using the Lavry? Does coaxial sound different to optical on your Lavry/Naim DAC when streaming with the SB3 using both available interfaces?

Cheers,
Peter
Posted on: 31 December 2009 by Keith L
HiLine XLR to din is a special order. Two years ago I did bastardise such a cable. In the end the Canare proved its match at a fraction of the cost.

I don't have much experience of using my MBP with the Lavry. I've tried it several times and found the sound comparable to the SB3. It's just so inconvenient to tether a laptop with an optical lead. If I was into music available on high bitrate download, I may think twice and use the MBP. As it is, the SB3 at 44.1/16 bit, does me fine for the time being.

In my limited experience coax sounds better than optical. I say limited because I haven't invested in a decent optical lead. My Naim DC1 is slightly better than my other coax which is a cheapo Monster lead, originally bought for use on a Dolby digital surround.
Posted on: 01 January 2010 by PMR
quote:
Originally posted by Keith L:
HiLine XLR to din is a special order. Two years ago I did bastardise such a cable. In the end the Canare proved its match at a fraction of the cost.

I don't have much experience of using my MBP with the Lavry. I've tried it several times and found the sound comparable to the SB3. It's just so inconvenient to tether a laptop with an optical lead. If I was into music available on high bitrate download, I may think twice and use the MBP. As it is, the SB3 at 44.1/16 bit, does me fine for the time being.

In my limited experience coax sounds better than optical. I say limited because I haven't invested in a decent optical lead. My Naim DC1 is slightly better than my other coax which is a cheapo Monster lead, originally bought for use on a Dolby digital surround.
I'll try with my SB Duet today using a Benchmark, Weiss and DAD AX24. Sadly, I no longer have a DA10 or 11 to make the comparison.

It certainly would be interesting if you could further confirm whether indeed the Naim DAC is better when switching between coaxial and optical on the SB3. I totally agree with you regarding the MBP, though it does have its fans for portability.

Speak soon,
Peter
Posted on: 02 January 2010 by Keith L
I returned the demo unit this morning.

The Ndac's strengths aren't immediately obvious on AB testing. I know many don't pay heed to this type of testing, but it's so easy to do because my CD8 and SB3 pump out analogue, coax and optical simultaneously.

On longer term listening it's the naturalness of the sound which becomes apparent. As well as a huge width to the soundstage, there's an increased depth which makes the output from the CD8 and Lavry seem flat and two dimensional. Poor recordings become much more acceptable as the music wins through as opposed to being totally lifeless and uninteresting.

The dem unit is fairly new and I did experience a low point on the second day of my three day loan, where the unit just sounded ok. The expansive soundstage returned on the last day.

I miss it.
Posted on: 02 January 2010 by Aleg
quote:
Originally posted by Keith L:
...
The Ndac's strengths aren't immediately obvious on AB testing. I know many don't pay heed to this type of testing, but it's so easy to do because my CD8 and SB3 pump out analogue, coax and optical simultaneously.
...
I miss it.


You also mentioned earlier
quote:
rips are bog standard iTunes ALAC or AIFF
.

iTunes is not best of ripping software (some don't even consider it to be a secure ripper) esp. failing AccurateRip support.

I wonder if using dBPoweramp or EAC with secure ripping and AccurateRip support could have made a difference in your experience using the SB?

Reading the introduction about audio CD-technology not being automatically just '1's and '0's in here makes me more appreciative of good quality CD-players and of the value of good software rippers.

-
aleg
Posted on: 02 January 2010 by Keith L
Hi Aleg,

I don't get hung up about accurate rips; in two years of ripping with iTunes I have come across probably less than a handful of errors that I know of. If there are other errors that I cannot hear, I don't care about them.

However it has been suggested that rips done by dbPoweramp actually sound better. This does interest me and I will investigate further. Playback of rips is also coming under scrutiny. The likes of Amarra and PV suggest that iTunes playback can be improved. I use Slim Devices for playback.

ATB Keith
Posted on: 02 January 2010 by PMR
quote:
Originally posted by Keith L:
I returned the demo unit this morning.

The Ndac's strengths aren't immediately obvious on AB testing. I know many don't pay heed to this type of testing, but it's so easy to do because my CD8 and SB3 pump out analogue, coax and optical simultaneously.

On longer term listening it's the naturalness of the sound which becomes apparent. As well as a huge width to the soundstage, there's an increased depth which makes the output from the CD8 and Lavry seem flat and two dimensional. Poor recordings become much more acceptable as the music wins through as opposed to being totally lifeless and uninteresting.

The dem unit is fairly new and I did experience a low point on the second day of my three day loan, where the unit just sounded ok. The expansive soundstage returned on the last day.

I miss it.
Your impression is very similar to my experience of moving from the Weiss DAC2/Firewire to the DAD AX24/SPDIF Coaxial which is significantly better. Even at £4000 with only 24/192 supported (capable of 24/384, plus AD conversion as an extra) I couldn’t live without its vinyl beating organic flow, weighty, pristine and detailed performance from top to bottom. It would make sense to buy the Naim DAC if you get anywhere near this improvement or look higher up the ladder towards the DAD, Playback, DCS or other.
Posted on: 03 January 2010 by connon price
quote:
Originally posted by Keith L:
In my limited experience coax sounds better than optical. I say limited because I haven't invested in a decent optical lead. My Naim DC1 is slightly better than my other coax which is a cheapo Monster lead, originally bought for use on a Dolby digital surround.


When the pre-production DAC was at Tune at end of October, a fellow brought in his iBook and an inexpensive monster cable mini-tos to toslink that he bought at the Apple store and it sounded none too special into the DAC. I brought out a Chord Optichord mini to toslink and the sound and music improved by a large margin. Whether his cable had been bent and damaged at some time or the ends had become scratched, I don't know.

My demo DAC is in the country and heading my way. Super excited.
Posted on: 03 January 2010 by Joe Bibb
quote:
Originally posted by Keith L:


I miss it.


Keith,

Any chance of a repeat? Wouldn't mind popping along. Can bring my DAC 2 and have Pure Vinyl and Amarra, both of which might be a better feed than the SD.

Joe
Posted on: 05 January 2010 by Alco
quote:
I'll be listening to the Naim and Lavry DACs against my DacMagic early in the new year (once recovered from having my gall bladder out next week). I feed the DM from a Squeezebox 3 so your comments are interesting


Good luck on your gall bladder operation, Matt!
Looking forward to your finding with the Naim DAC on the SB3. (I also feed my SB3 with a DM)

regards,
Alco
Posted on: 07 January 2010 by matt303
Gallbladder out, still in some pain so staying in for extra night in hospital.

Naim DAC listening will happen once the replacement for my cracked DM psu arrives.