A Green Power Supply For Naim?
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 16 October 2006
A Green Power Supply For Naim Kit
Dear Friends,
I am always one to consider an idea, and ponder it at length.
A few years ago the wind-up transistor radio was ‘invented,’ which worked on a hand wound clockwork spring to provide the small amount of energy required to use the radio in territories where batteries were scarce, and mains electricity scarcer.
Would it not be possible to do something similar for Naim pieces, which are after all not notoriously power hungry, but are certainly sensitive enough to respond well to an excellent and clean mains supply. I imagine the very cleanest generation would be possible under these circumstances.
My thought is something along the idea of a manually wound weight driven machine to generate a continuous supply of electricity, which naturally would not be connected to anything else other than the gramophone. Maybe it would be unsuitable for Active 500s or Six-packs, but say a Nait 5i would be an easier proposition.
It might require ten minutes a day to crank a mangle sized handle, but this would be both good exercise and a complete argument against the green brigade who resent any waste except their own when they travel abroad on a plane for example!
It would possibly require a new idea for power supplies, if the voltage generated was other than 110 or 230 volts, but surely a small very high quality generator is all that would be needed.
Any thoughts? I would be keen to experiment with this idea if any more technically minded people thought that it could work. I wonder how transient demands might fair. But again I doubt if a Nait 5i or any power amp up to say the NAP 200 would pose too much of a problem. Presumably the NAP 500 would require a rather high capacity generator (in the domestic scale I am considering) to cope.
All the best from Fredrik
Dear Friends,
I am always one to consider an idea, and ponder it at length.
A few years ago the wind-up transistor radio was ‘invented,’ which worked on a hand wound clockwork spring to provide the small amount of energy required to use the radio in territories where batteries were scarce, and mains electricity scarcer.
Would it not be possible to do something similar for Naim pieces, which are after all not notoriously power hungry, but are certainly sensitive enough to respond well to an excellent and clean mains supply. I imagine the very cleanest generation would be possible under these circumstances.
My thought is something along the idea of a manually wound weight driven machine to generate a continuous supply of electricity, which naturally would not be connected to anything else other than the gramophone. Maybe it would be unsuitable for Active 500s or Six-packs, but say a Nait 5i would be an easier proposition.
It might require ten minutes a day to crank a mangle sized handle, but this would be both good exercise and a complete argument against the green brigade who resent any waste except their own when they travel abroad on a plane for example!
It would possibly require a new idea for power supplies, if the voltage generated was other than 110 or 230 volts, but surely a small very high quality generator is all that would be needed.
Any thoughts? I would be keen to experiment with this idea if any more technically minded people thought that it could work. I wonder how transient demands might fair. But again I doubt if a Nait 5i or any power amp up to say the NAP 200 would pose too much of a problem. Presumably the NAP 500 would require a rather high capacity generator (in the domestic scale I am considering) to cope.
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by Phil Cork
Hi Fredrik!
Long time no speak, how are you? Happy in Worcester I hope...
My gut feeling is that the energy required to run even a modest unit for a reasonable amount of time might require considerably more than 10 minutes of effort. Energy is neither created nor destroyed, merely converted from one form to another. Hence you'd have to put in as much as you need to get out, however, given that all processes are less than 100% efficient, you'd have to put in considerably more than you need.
Have you ever spent half an hour on an exercise bike, only to find that you've used only 50 calories or so? Hardly a mars bar! Well, i thought i'd look up how many Watts that was.
I looked up a power converter here:
http://www.projects.ex.ac.uk/trol/scol/ccpower.htm
and typed in 200 Watts (my p/s and power amps have 500 Watt transformers), and found that it amounts to 172 kcals per hour, which is just about feasible, if you really go at it! (I believe that kcals are the unit usually described as 'calories'? - someone might correct me here)
So I think you might need to churn away at the generator whilst listening, or at least for a similar amount of time to that which you intend to listen! An hour a day on the exercise bike, for an hour or less of music!
Raising a weight to store the energy is no different to the above. What you're doing is converting kinetic enegy (movement) into potential energy (energy a mass possesses due to it's height), which can then be converted back into kinetic energy as it descends to run the generator. This is inherently more 'lossy' as you have two conversions to reckon with (heat is one means by which the energy is 'lost').
The noise of the bike might also interfere with the low level listening.....
Happy peddling! [exhasted smiley]
Phil
Long time no speak, how are you? Happy in Worcester I hope...
My gut feeling is that the energy required to run even a modest unit for a reasonable amount of time might require considerably more than 10 minutes of effort. Energy is neither created nor destroyed, merely converted from one form to another. Hence you'd have to put in as much as you need to get out, however, given that all processes are less than 100% efficient, you'd have to put in considerably more than you need.
Have you ever spent half an hour on an exercise bike, only to find that you've used only 50 calories or so? Hardly a mars bar! Well, i thought i'd look up how many Watts that was.
I looked up a power converter here:
http://www.projects.ex.ac.uk/trol/scol/ccpower.htm
and typed in 200 Watts (my p/s and power amps have 500 Watt transformers), and found that it amounts to 172 kcals per hour, which is just about feasible, if you really go at it! (I believe that kcals are the unit usually described as 'calories'? - someone might correct me here)
So I think you might need to churn away at the generator whilst listening, or at least for a similar amount of time to that which you intend to listen! An hour a day on the exercise bike, for an hour or less of music!
Raising a weight to store the energy is no different to the above. What you're doing is converting kinetic enegy (movement) into potential energy (energy a mass possesses due to it's height), which can then be converted back into kinetic energy as it descends to run the generator. This is inherently more 'lossy' as you have two conversions to reckon with (heat is one means by which the energy is 'lost').
The noise of the bike might also interfere with the low level listening.....
Happy peddling! [exhasted smiley]
Phil
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Phil,
I do understand about the conservation of energy! Energy cannot be destroyed or created, only transformed... I know that our Naim power supplies have very large ratings, but this is designed for robust dealing with peaks rather than a continuous rating, and the actually energy consumed or more correctely "transformed" into "vabrations in the air" and "heat" is actually not that large. Obviously much less when low volumes from a modest amp are used than would be needed for disco levels of a big amp, but the quiesecent power consumption might be a good indication of the necessary energy consumption for a good deal of replay. I suppose the answer would be to meter a typical set for a week and work out just how much energy had been transformed. Not much I suspect. Then it would be possible to work out how much energy would have to be fed into a given system, such a weight driven generator. Kinetic to Potential, to Electrical Energy, and then to Sound Energy, all with inefficiencies to Heat Energy. Enough of that and we shall race towards Entropy!. [Of course the electricity generating system itself would have inefficiencies, and produce heat, which would have to be calculated in].
There would be a need to also find out what a practicle maximim energy requirement might be so that the voltage of the generator did not drop too much under peak load, such as a heavy transient in replay.
I imagine one of the heaviest draws on a generator might be at first turning on the units!
So as a start, can anyone advise on how to measure the energy required by my modest set for example over a reasonable period. Do mini-meters exist that can be plugged into the socket and then the item to be measured plugged into that meter. I would also be useful if it measured any peaks in consumption. Essential actually...
Then it would be necessary to find out if a suitable high quality generator is made and how it might be driven.
I think there may be something in this!
ATB from Fredrik
I do understand about the conservation of energy! Energy cannot be destroyed or created, only transformed... I know that our Naim power supplies have very large ratings, but this is designed for robust dealing with peaks rather than a continuous rating, and the actually energy consumed or more correctely "transformed" into "vabrations in the air" and "heat" is actually not that large. Obviously much less when low volumes from a modest amp are used than would be needed for disco levels of a big amp, but the quiesecent power consumption might be a good indication of the necessary energy consumption for a good deal of replay. I suppose the answer would be to meter a typical set for a week and work out just how much energy had been transformed. Not much I suspect. Then it would be possible to work out how much energy would have to be fed into a given system, such a weight driven generator. Kinetic to Potential, to Electrical Energy, and then to Sound Energy, all with inefficiencies to Heat Energy. Enough of that and we shall race towards Entropy!. [Of course the electricity generating system itself would have inefficiencies, and produce heat, which would have to be calculated in].
There would be a need to also find out what a practicle maximim energy requirement might be so that the voltage of the generator did not drop too much under peak load, such as a heavy transient in replay.
I imagine one of the heaviest draws on a generator might be at first turning on the units!
So as a start, can anyone advise on how to measure the energy required by my modest set for example over a reasonable period. Do mini-meters exist that can be plugged into the socket and then the item to be measured plugged into that meter. I would also be useful if it measured any peaks in consumption. Essential actually...
Then it would be necessary to find out if a suitable high quality generator is made and how it might be driven.
I think there may be something in this!
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by Phil Cork
Fredrik,
My apologies, my post wan't intended to be patronising, merely informative - talking through the whole topic as I understood it.
I have a power meter somewhere which measures the power drawn from an AC supply. If i can find it when I move back, I'll plug my hydra into it and see what it reads.
You're quite right in that the system would have its inefficiencies. So do does the Naim equipment, in that it produces its own heat also, as well as audible output - oh, and (green) light!
An interesting question...
Are you intending that the 'generator' charges a battery? or is geared to continuously turn an alternator as it falls slowly?
Regards,
Phil
My apologies, my post wan't intended to be patronising, merely informative - talking through the whole topic as I understood it.
I have a power meter somewhere which measures the power drawn from an AC supply. If i can find it when I move back, I'll plug my hydra into it and see what it reads.
You're quite right in that the system would have its inefficiencies. So do does the Naim equipment, in that it produces its own heat also, as well as audible output - oh, and (green) light!
An interesting question...
Are you intending that the 'generator' charges a battery? or is geared to continuously turn an alternator as it falls slowly?
Regards,
Phil
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
Continuous AC generation, as batteries generally have a significant problem with internal resistances which sets up a whole new problem where the Potential Difference across the battery (of cells) infact drops because of this internal resistance as the current draw rises.
I imagine that a very high quality generator of magnets rotating within continous wire coils could be built with rather a low internal resistance, thus allowing higher currents to be drawn before the actual electrical resistance of the generating system became a serious issue for ultimate performance. I have been thinking about this for a couple of years!
The motor for the gernerator I have in mind would be that which was employed at EMI to drive the 78s lathes used to cut wax masters, which had a tremendous abiltiy to keep a constant speed, and had a much finer torque capacity than any electric motor of the period...
Fred
I imagine that a very high quality generator of magnets rotating within continous wire coils could be built with rather a low internal resistance, thus allowing higher currents to be drawn before the actual electrical resistance of the generating system became a serious issue for ultimate performance. I have been thinking about this for a couple of years!
The motor for the gernerator I have in mind would be that which was employed at EMI to drive the 78s lathes used to cut wax masters, which had a tremendous abiltiy to keep a constant speed, and had a much finer torque capacity than any electric motor of the period...
Fred
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by Phil Cork
Ok, let me see if I have this right.
You crank the handle for 10 minutes or so, which raises the weight to its maximum height. The weight then falls under gravity at very slow speed, geared to turn an alternator at 50 Hertz, which generates an AC supply whilst the equipment is being used.
Is that how you envisage it?
A couple of questions - what does the electrical load do to the torque that the falling weight 'sees' at the alternator - ie would it get more difficult to turn as the electrical load increases? If so, how do you regulate the speed at which the weight falls?
Phil
You crank the handle for 10 minutes or so, which raises the weight to its maximum height. The weight then falls under gravity at very slow speed, geared to turn an alternator at 50 Hertz, which generates an AC supply whilst the equipment is being used.
Is that how you envisage it?
A couple of questions - what does the electrical load do to the torque that the falling weight 'sees' at the alternator - ie would it get more difficult to turn as the electrical load increases? If so, how do you regulate the speed at which the weight falls?
Phil
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by Phil Cork
Ok,
Have done a little more research.
Check here:
http://www.caloriecontrol.org/exercalc.html
for a calculator for calories burned for different exercises. 10 minutes of working out at the gym results in 63 calories burned. I would expect 10 minutes of cranking a handle to raise a weight to be comparable, which gives 63 calories in 10 minutes, or 6.3 calories per minute of cranking.
Using the previous link, this seems to equate to 440 joules/second (Watts), which would suggest that you may be able to run some equipment for some time. I guess the power consumption of the Naim equipment is really required now. You'd also need to determine the efficiency of the whole generator, which i'd be surprised if it was much above 50%... Again a gut feeling only.
As you say, if Naim were to redesign the power requirements of the equipment (DC rather than AC), then the additional losses of the AC-DC conversion may be removed from the equation.
Phil
Have done a little more research.
Check here:
http://www.caloriecontrol.org/exercalc.html
for a calculator for calories burned for different exercises. 10 minutes of working out at the gym results in 63 calories burned. I would expect 10 minutes of cranking a handle to raise a weight to be comparable, which gives 63 calories in 10 minutes, or 6.3 calories per minute of cranking.
Using the previous link, this seems to equate to 440 joules/second (Watts), which would suggest that you may be able to run some equipment for some time. I guess the power consumption of the Naim equipment is really required now. You'd also need to determine the efficiency of the whole generator, which i'd be surprised if it was much above 50%... Again a gut feeling only.
As you say, if Naim were to redesign the power requirements of the equipment (DC rather than AC), then the additional losses of the AC-DC conversion may be removed from the equation.
Phil
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by Phil Cork
Oh, and another thought - perhaps water is the most obvious choice for the weight, a simple hand pump being used to raise it!
Phil
Phil
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear phil,
The most efficient way to raise the weight would be the use of an excercise bike type drive to transform the Chemical Energy in me via the mechanism to Potential Energy in the motor drive system... That is how man can produce most power, and it would simply be a question of working out how long it would take to raise the weight enough to provide the necessary power to run the kit for 24 hours. Perhaps with the extra power used during playing one might find that to "use the kit" rather than just keep it powered might give you a four hour session as opposed to twenty four hours of quienscent powering up.
The old EMI weight driven lathes worked with a mechanical govenor, which was set at the begining of the session. Obviously the torque reqired to drive the cutter was much greater at the outside groove of the wax master, than the inner grooving. Other companies used electric motors with the result the the cutting lathe tended to speed up during the cutting. The result was a steady lowering of pitch during the course of the side, which causes alsorts of trouble for the modern transfer enineer, but the EMI system was very stable indeed in this aspect, and actually much quieter than the electric drive as well in terms of recorded in transmission and motor noises.
I know this sounds a bit eccentric, but in a world where energy consumption paterns are going to change very significantly over the next decade at the least, I think this is something to look into.
I would happily pedal away for ten or twenty minutes every day (or perhaps for four hours of use), even though it would be really funny if it was a good session accompanied by something to drink! Then I guess a heart attack might be the order of the day to re-energise the system!
First thing I need to find out is what the peak demand of my kit - Nait 5i and CDS2 is - and what its average consumption is in use and quiescent!
Then find out if a high quality alternating generator can be sourced, and how to get hold of the king of gravity motor.
I might be the first person in the world with an entirely green Naim set! Perhaps Adam would allow me to dispense with all the logo lights in that circumstance! Every milewatt will count!
Fredrik
The most efficient way to raise the weight would be the use of an excercise bike type drive to transform the Chemical Energy in me via the mechanism to Potential Energy in the motor drive system... That is how man can produce most power, and it would simply be a question of working out how long it would take to raise the weight enough to provide the necessary power to run the kit for 24 hours. Perhaps with the extra power used during playing one might find that to "use the kit" rather than just keep it powered might give you a four hour session as opposed to twenty four hours of quienscent powering up.
The old EMI weight driven lathes worked with a mechanical govenor, which was set at the begining of the session. Obviously the torque reqired to drive the cutter was much greater at the outside groove of the wax master, than the inner grooving. Other companies used electric motors with the result the the cutting lathe tended to speed up during the cutting. The result was a steady lowering of pitch during the course of the side, which causes alsorts of trouble for the modern transfer enineer, but the EMI system was very stable indeed in this aspect, and actually much quieter than the electric drive as well in terms of recorded in transmission and motor noises.
I know this sounds a bit eccentric, but in a world where energy consumption paterns are going to change very significantly over the next decade at the least, I think this is something to look into.
I would happily pedal away for ten or twenty minutes every day (or perhaps for four hours of use), even though it would be really funny if it was a good session accompanied by something to drink! Then I guess a heart attack might be the order of the day to re-energise the system!
First thing I need to find out is what the peak demand of my kit - Nait 5i and CDS2 is - and what its average consumption is in use and quiescent!
Then find out if a high quality alternating generator can be sourced, and how to get hold of the king of gravity motor.
I might be the first person in the world with an entirely green Naim set! Perhaps Adam would allow me to dispense with all the logo lights in that circumstance! Every milewatt will count!
Fredrik
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by EdBond
How about some van 12v batteries and an invertor, possibly using solar panels / turbine to charge.
Am thinking about this for lighting around the house....am sure the kit will cost more than the saving !
Ed
Am thinking about this for lighting around the house....am sure the kit will cost more than the saving !
Ed
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by Ian G.
Quick practical point from a theorist:
1000kg @ 3m high provides a max of 30000 joules.
Dribbled down over 1 hour of listening provides an average of 30000J/3600s = 8 Watts!
Enjoy the structural engineering !
ian
1000kg @ 3m high provides a max of 30000 joules.
Dribbled down over 1 hour of listening provides an average of 30000J/3600s = 8 Watts!
Enjoy the structural engineering !
ian
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
Ian! [Somehting will have to be done one day, but maybe not yet, type of smiley Smiley]!
Fredrik!
PS: Maybe it will be back to wind up gramophones! The Lumiere Pleated Diagphram was begining to show real progress in the late twenties, but was far too expensive. It more than rivalled electrical valve amplification at the time, and microphone work, but was never developed because of its extreme cost.
Fredrik!
PS: Maybe it will be back to wind up gramophones! The Lumiere Pleated Diagphram was begining to show real progress in the late twenties, but was far too expensive. It more than rivalled electrical valve amplification at the time, and microphone work, but was never developed because of its extreme cost.
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by Steve2701
I'm going to get real worried when I see Fredrik walking through Worcester with 500Kg of hamster food in a wheelbarrow.
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
No I am going to buy a cart horse, and set up a real "powerhouse," and then if the old nag farts too much I can be accused of doing as much damage as using a simple plug into the "plain Jane" mains!
Fred.
Fred.
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by Stuart M
I love the vision of a Naim six pack powered by hamsters. Although a cat would be needed for the power surges.
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
Perhaps the Cat Duet by Rossini (Victoria de los Ancholes and Elisabeth Swartzkopf come to mind as great exponents) would be required to get the cat to motivate the hamsters! Or perhaps he would eat them too soon and that would be it. No musiuc at all! [Smiley]!
Fredrik.
Fredrik.
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by wellyspyder
fred where are you heading? is this suppose to be a insomniac thread?
Posted on: 16 October 2006 by Deane F
quote:Originally posted by Stuart M:
I love the vision of a Naim six pack powered by hamsters. Although a cat would be needed for the power surges.
A Naim hamster...with green eyes...NAPSTER !!
(boom boom)
Posted on: 17 October 2006 by NaimThatTune
Hi Fredrik and All,
I'm an insomniac but I missed this thread until now..!
I have lent my power meter to a friend, however I measured the power consumption of my kit (CDX2, 252, 300) a while ago and posted the results on this forum. My findings were posted in a thread called 'The ecological cost of leaving stereo on'
To reiterate here and save you all from searching (thus extending the life of the planet by perhaps a few nanoseconds?) the consumption figures I measured were:
Supercap w 252 (13W) and CDX2 (12W) only: 25W
Add a [NAP]300, power jumps to 47W
When playing with volume at around the 9pm position, the total consumption was 53W
This should help! Time for my 'ecologically prepared' (i.e. raw) dinner now!!
[green smiley]
Rich.
I'm an insomniac but I missed this thread until now..!
I have lent my power meter to a friend, however I measured the power consumption of my kit (CDX2, 252, 300) a while ago and posted the results on this forum. My findings were posted in a thread called 'The ecological cost of leaving stereo on'
To reiterate here and save you all from searching (thus extending the life of the planet by perhaps a few nanoseconds?) the consumption figures I measured were:
Supercap w 252 (13W) and CDX2 (12W) only: 25W
Add a [NAP]300, power jumps to 47W
When playing with volume at around the 9pm position, the total consumption was 53W
This should help! Time for my 'ecologically prepared' (i.e. raw) dinner now!!
[green smiley]
Rich.
Posted on: 17 October 2006 by NaimThatTune
Me again,
Deane F - I liked your play on words!
However, maybe don't mention the the hamsters to Lars Ulrich, he may try to sue us, or worse, re-ignite the 'Hi end for Metallica' debate!!
[debauched heavy metal smiley!]
Rich.
Deane F - I liked your play on words!
However, maybe don't mention the the hamsters to Lars Ulrich, he may try to sue us, or worse, re-ignite the 'Hi end for Metallica' debate!!
[debauched heavy metal smiley!]
Rich.
Posted on: 17 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
So a CDS2 would be about the same as a CDX2 at about 12 watts, and a Nait 5i bringing the whole show up to about 30 to 50 watts at a reasonable level of playback. Not exactly a bon-fire then...
I have not given up. Perhaps Solar-cells and a battery of cells! Not sure how that would work for the multiple regulated power supplies of the CDS2, but this will not be the end of it!
More thought to be put in. I wonder if the R. and D. people have ever thought about this?
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I have not given up. Perhaps Solar-cells and a battery of cells! Not sure how that would work for the multiple regulated power supplies of the CDS2, but this will not be the end of it!
More thought to be put in. I wonder if the R. and D. people have ever thought about this?
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 17 October 2006 by Alexander
Someone told me a car battery is actually the best source for audio. I wouldn't know but if you hook up your hometrainer to a dynamo to the car battery then 20 minutes of biking is good for one hour of music.
I suspect though that a far bigger saving is going to come from the reduced need for central heating...
I suspect though that a far bigger saving is going to come from the reduced need for central heating...
Posted on: 17 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Alex,
So for the four hours of the Saint Matthew Passion, I would need to treadle away for 80 minutes! Actually I cannot see much objection really, as I would certainly appreciate the music more if it had been worked for that hard for it!
Fredrik
So for the four hours of the Saint Matthew Passion, I would need to treadle away for 80 minutes! Actually I cannot see much objection really, as I would certainly appreciate the music more if it had been worked for that hard for it!
Fredrik
Posted on: 17 October 2006 by Deane F
I'm just wondering, Fredrik, if you would shave your legs before doing so much cycling? (Be careful around your knees if you do...)
Posted on: 17 October 2006 by u5227470736789439
Nah Deano!
Fortunately, though the hair is all migrating off my head, it is not such a problem that it would get tangled in the chain!
Nice to read you posting again, from Fredrik
Fortunately, though the hair is all migrating off my head, it is not such a problem that it would get tangled in the chain!
Nice to read you posting again, from Fredrik
Posted on: 19 October 2006 by rackkit
quote:Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
A Green Power Supply For Naim Kit
Dear Friends,
I am always one to consider an idea, and ponder it at length.
A few years ago the wind-up transistor radio was ‘invented,’ which worked on a hand wound clockwork spring to provide the small amount of energy required to use the radio in territories where batteries were scarce, and mains electricity scarcer.
My thought is something along the idea of a manually wound weight driven machine to generate a continuous supply of electricity, which naturally would not be connected to anything else other than the gramophone.
All the best from Fredrik
"Fred Fiske a year after manually powering up his hifi system."