Technique, Musicians, and Expression of Emotion In Music

Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 23 April 2006

Technique, Musicians, and Expression Of Emotion In Music

Dear Friends,

Last week I read in a thread that some members felt that performing musicians tend to loose sight of the emtional message in music, and concentrate on the technical aspect somewhat at the expense the emotional side.

I thought it might be interesting to start a Thread discussing this premiss, which I naturally disagree with to a large extent.

I think it certain that some musicians are technicians first and foremost, whose talent and interest happen to be in the technical area. Sometimes these individuals reach the very top of the profession, but I don't think they represent all the is most interesting or engaging in musical performance practice, and certainly they do not represent the majority of performing musicians. Occasionally, there is a tendency for non-musicians to judge musicians on what they say rather than how they perform music, and of course this is wrong as some of the greatest musicians are and were famously inarticulate when faced with speaking or writing. Furtwangler had to work very hard indeed to express himself clearly, and his methods of rehearsing were markedly non-vocal!

Some others are and were indeed very lucid in language, but it still was not their first means of expression, so to judge them on that basis is still somewhat flawed, I would think.

So how has the confusion arisen? I think mainly because musicians have to analyse what it is that they do when they perform a piece. Firstly they have to comprehend what the piece is about, and in the process work out all the technical aspects and the those aspects (of expression and emotional content) to do with what the music means beyond the notes. But once they have grasped the meaning of a piece, the technical side then extends to involve methods of expressing this through the medium of their instrument. It is no good thinking that a piece has a nervous, quick expressive content, for example, if the sonority employed is then soft, smooth and mellow; so the expressive sonority must be fitted to the expressive effect desired. On strings, for example this nervous effect can be achieved by bowing the string nearer the bridge, and using relative short bows strokes, among other things, so the issue becomes one of technique and analysis, but this does not actually mean the musician has lost sight of the expressive meaning ( and by now having analysed the situation, also, the technical expressive means). He is employing his technique for expressive means, which is different to obsessing about technique. This is why an adequate technique is a pre-requisite if successful performance in music.

A truly great artist will leave the impression on his audience that he is playing the music impromptu, in the apt expressive and stylistic way, without a hint that the performance is a long way from being so artless or simple. He will use his technical armoury totally at the service of the music, where as the lesser artist may be tempted to show what a phenomemnal technique he has, because he cannot fully probe the depths and meanings of the music at the emotional expressive level, and wishes to divert attention from that deficit. The range of performers will soon be seen as being rather large in this variation, as soon as you actually listen to the resulting readings of a number of artists in the same piece.

The idea that any performance stands much chance of being a success as the result of being improvsed on the spot, without preparation and thought, will soon seem obvious. [Boehm said that improvisation was the enemy of the great recreative artistry, and anyone who thinks that Furtwangler was an improviser need only to listen to two performances of the same music ten years apart to realise that the details were in fact completely organised, and the structural perception the same in all but small details. What varies is elements that vary for all artists and in other circumstances for all people, such as the mood on the day, and the conditions of performance or work. That causes a lot of variation for most musicians over time]. There are so many decisions to make, the simplest being speed, dynamic, and expressive tone colour of the very start! The end of the piece must be almost heard in the first notes! Thus the actual time spent performing a piece is rather small compared to the time considering it from so many angles. The different personal characteristics of the musicians inevitably come out in this process, for every individual perceives things differently!

There is no reason to suppose that soloists, conductors, or principal players have a monopoly on this either. Orchestral musicians are often the equal of their most famous, high-profile cohorts. Some of the most musical players never make it beyond rank and file, but given the moment will bloom in way thought hardly comensurate with their actual level of technical ability, or the demands of musical job they occupy as a living!

The problem arrises when a musician is asked to talk or write about a piece of music, and then sets off on a mainly technical discussion! Of course, he has already done the expressive consideration and comprehension work, and his description is apt to centre on how, technically, he will bring the music to life. Thus the listener may find himself quite sure that the consideration of the music in hand is all technical, and that the musician has less contact with the music than the listener. This is quite clearly very often, completely wrong. The musician will have spent far longer on it it and thought far more penetratingly on the musical expressive content than all but a tiny minority of his listeners. Most musicians would rather play a piece having done the ground-work, than attempt the fruitless task of describing its emotional effect in words. If musicians were literary giants and could do this effectively, then we would not find music had anything to add to the beautiful words used to describe it! Even great literary men like GB Shaw utterly failed to adequately describe the music they loved!

Of course there are listeners who may think themselves more expert on one piece or another than this artist or that, but I would think the listener is in the wrong job in that case!

Any thoughts, dear Friends? All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by Tam
Dear ROTF,

An interest point, indeed. One of my favourite jazz albums is Miles Davis's 1964 'complete concert' (though I wish they would rerelease in in the original running order rather than as the current two original albums, one containing all the fast numbers, the other the slow ones, but I digress). The concert was given at the height of the civil rights movement and Davis insisted that the players wave their fees for a charity. Now, this was all very well for him to say (he was extremely rich), but much more of a problem for his band, and many of them were pretty livid about it and only just persuaded to go on stage together. And yet, out of than anger, came some fantastic music making.


Dear Nigel and Fredrik,

This cuts both ways. I wonder though if quite all the meaning and emotion is put there by the composer. What I mean is that some interpreters will draw out different things from the same work, if you will emphasising a certain meaning or emotion. So while, it must certainly have been there, at least in embryo, meanings and emotions can clearly be heightened or even, perhaps (with some interpretations) changed by the performer? It can, after all, certainly be destroyed by a bad enough reading (as I suspect Fredrik would think Gould does, I apologise if I am putting words into your mouth).

It is, entirely impossible to judge music objectively - I have been to concerts with people whose musical taste and judgement I respect, yet have disagreed strongly with them about how good it was.

One can probably not always be sure what emotion a composer was trying to convey (though in Mahler's unfinished symphony, scrawled as the original manuscript is with angst ridden messages about his wife's betrayal, one probably has a pretty fair idea, as one does elsewhere). However, I think it is probably fair to say that the composer had specific emotions and meanings in mind when (s)he wrote the thing. However, inevitably, when a work is performed, it is done so through the lens of the performers - we will never hear Beethoven's 9th symphony as it was in his head.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by Oldnslow
Fredrik--do you really wish you had been born 40 years earlier?. If so, you might have been engaged in other activities besides music....
On the other hand, I suppose if you had been born in Germany forty years earlier you might have been able to hear Furtwangler conduct Beethoven in Berlin.....As much as I love those live, cough-filled, wartime recordings by Furtwangler, I always have this feeling in the back of my mind that half the people in the audience deserved a bullet in the head.
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:
Originally posted by Oldnslow:
Fredrik--do you really wish you had been born 40 years earlier?. If so, you might have been engaged in other activities besides music....
On the other hand, I suppose if you had been born in Germany forty years earlier you might have been able to hear Furtwangler conduct Beethoven in Berlin.....As much as I love those live, cough-filled, wartime recordings by Furtwangler, I always have this feeling in the back of my mind that half the people in the audience deserved a bullet in the head.


LOL. Brilliant.
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
quote:


Dear Nigel,

The meaning and emotion in the music is put there by the compoer of it! Not all music has a very high level or emotion, or even any specific meaning.

I don't think we can anymore objectively quantify how sucessfully a performance brings out the expressive meaning of a piece than we could actually identify what precisely an abstract piece of art (of any sort including music) actually means.

All the best from Fredrik


NIgel Cavendish replies:

How can one know what meaning and emotion the composer intended to convey? Is there in the score the equivalent of the "emotion chip"? If so where is this in the notation?

If this cannot be objectively quantified, I return to my original point that it is the listener who attributes these qualities to the music, or performer they "like".


Fredrik responds:

Dear Nigel,

That is precisely the point. You make my point, actually! There is no objective way of defining what the meaning in any music is, but for miriad of humans it does have a meaning! A real importance! A great performer playing great music comprehends the meaning even though in all probability he would be utterly unable to explain it in words. He brings out the meaning, the character, the message if he can deduce it, and thus produces a great reading!

If you have not found this then clearly there is no music in you! I cannot explain it, and I would feel I was wasting my time trying to as I would feel it superfluous to lead a not very thirsty horse to the brook!

I hope other non-material aspects of life appeal to you or you will be reasoably be considered very much deprived, not least by me!

Do you honestly mean that you find no meaning in say the slow movement of Bach Two Violin Concero for example, where the message is rather clear and obvious. I do realise there are countless examples which are harder to comprehend quite so soon, but I cannot explain it anymore than I can explain why a sunrise is beautiful!

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Oldnslow,

I think I would have prefered Norway to Germany, and just listen to Furtwangler's music making on the Radio!

Then I would love to have been in London from 1945!

Fredrik
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

As there is no objective absolute here, there must be a range of possibilities in performance. One could cite the rather large differences beween Furtwangler, Klemperer and Toscanini in Beethoven's Choral Symphony for example, to demonstrate that actually the music has so many facets to bring out, but none of these performance descends to using the 'tempi di houchi-couchi,' as a basis for the slow movement for example!

Clearly they have much more in common than differences! I am sure you would agree that though the three chosen conductors, (chosen for a diverse approach in this instance) were temperamentally about as different to each other as might be conceived of, and their three readings are indeed at some variance, but the results are all convincing as a Beethoven readings of the first quality. Yes their readings underline different aspects of the music, but do nothing to diminish its meaning or impact, and certainly these three bring out much that is all too often covered over and missed in lesser hands.

Without naming names as I think the inference will have been drawn in any case, there are indeed artists who play across the most obvious aspects of the music, producing nothing but a self-serving parody of the music. In this way it is possible to beleive that they either don't understand the music, or actually think that their performance is more important than the music!

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by Oldnslow
Fredrik--Isn't it interesting that even the most evil humans can love and be moved deeply by music? I'm sure lots of Nazi's loved their Beethoven as well as the next person. While one would like to think there is a great connection between great music and the human spirit, I am not so sure
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by Tam
Dear Fredrik,

I agree.

I think I might perhaps modify what I said to this (which I suspect we agree on): no interpretation holds all the keys. In a work as diverse as the 9th symphony, where there is so much emotion and meaning on offer, no single interpretation is going to capture all of it. Now, I don't know Klemperer (and have only listened to to Toscanini the once), but take Furtwangler, Bernstein (in his Berlin/Christams Day reading - though perhaps I should steer clear of this one, since he chooses to alter, or perhaps not, the composer's meaning by substituting freedom for joy; I suppose one might argue that this change uses the symphony to underscore joy in freedom) and Mackerras. These are probably my three favourite readings of the work. Each have a power and impact and emotion that is inherent to the work; and yet each also move and involve in different ways and highlight different things. Even Rattle, whom I cannot stand in Beethoven, showed me a beauty in the 3rd movement that I had not heard before (though the fact it was the BPO, with their wonderful strings, playing live, may have helped). Perhaps the more good recordings and performances we hear of a great work, the more complete a picture it allows us to build up of it and of exactly what the composer might have had in his head.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
How can one know what meaning and emotion the composer intended to convey? Is there in the score the equivalent of the "emotion chip"? If so where is this in the notation?

If this cannot be objectively quantified, I return to my original point that it is the listener who attributes these qualities to the music, or performer they "like".


Further points, I am sorry!

Almost every composer was very specific about the means of bringing their music to life. Obsessive would not be to overstate their attitudes, in most cases! They put meaning into the music and they meant it to be brought out! They tended to very considerable reaction if they felt the meaning intended had not been brought out... It is certainly not necessary for the performer to invent a meaning, but simply to comprehend what the music is about and design his reading to bring out what he has comprehended. Of course, if you do not understand the music to some reasonable degree, its style, its content, its significance to the composer, you are in no position to judge (either for yourself or anyone else) whether what you heard was successful in this. You will much more readily spot if the performance was technically flawed for all that, which may be why some music critics spend so much time on this aspect.

There is a music performing tradition in Europe that goes right back to Gregorian Chant and earlier. It is reasonable to suppose that the great tradition of music making in Europe still contains the keys to how to unlock the geat music of composers no longer with us to directly read their own music in great live performances in the concert hall!

The point is that composers were musicians, and not literary giants. Their output was mainly abstract, but of course there are many examples where texts are set. From these even the dimmest person may be able to deduce how a composer stylistically expresses the simpler wordy meanings in music, but the most profound music still remains the purely abstract art music, whose mistery remains a source of inspiration to many great musicins and attentive listeners even today, where most other things are push-botton-easy in terms of diversion and entertainmment...

Appreciarting and getting to full porwer and significance of a great performance in great music, is not easy work or even something that will be done on first aquaintance with the music...

Fredrik
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by Tam
quote:
Originally posted by Oldnslow:
Fredrik--Isn't it interesting that even the most evil humans can love and be moved deeply by music? I'm sure lots of Nazi's loved their Beethoven as well as the next person. While one would like to think there is a great connection between great music and the human spirit, I am not so sure


Dear Oldnslow,

At risk of veering off topic, I think that the worrying thing about the majority of the Nazis, and fascists and extremists in general, is that they were 'the next person'. Which is a fairly depressing thought.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Oldnslow:
Fredrik--Isn't it interesting that even the most evil humans can love and be moved deeply by music? I'm sure lots of Nazi's loved their Beethoven as well as the next person. While one would like to think there is a great connection between great music and the human spirit, I am not so sure


Dear Oldnslow,

If music is abstract, then I imagine that it is difficult to place any moral content on it, just as one would not on a beautiful sunrise.

I would think there were great nature lovers, and so on, as well as great music lovers among the evil men of the world, but this has no significance for music's value at all.

There may indeed be a case to answer for Richard Wagner whose writings on the Jews in Germany and in Music may well colour what one thinks of him as an artist! Clearly the Nazi's found him quite acceptable! But I believe this applies to Wagner the man, and not remotely his music, as Barenboim seems to be saying this through actions, performing this music in Isreal and so forth.

Fredrik
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

I absolutely agree that variety is both inevitable and essential! And long aqaintance, and work studying the music in deatil, preferably with the score, with a work of this stature will always deepen the understanding of what the composer was driving at, if the mind is open to the possibility of a some fairly mystical thought on occasion.

Of course for the the literallists, it will never mean anything, but I simply don't care! It is their loss! Horses to water etc, as I said above.

Fredrik
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by Tam
Dear Fredrik,

While I have no real musical training (save for many years back when I played the trombone pretty badly - though I now wish I'd learnt the piano, and perhaps someday may get round to it), I have lately been wondering about trying to improve my understanding of some of my favourite works by acquainting myself with the score. The other weekend when I listened through Deryck Cooke's introduction to the Ring (which has a booklet that illustrates the leitmotivs) I was struck by how much more I learnt by looking at the book than simply by listening.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

I will lay a little bet that your next listen will be with a deepened comprehension, and so it goes on...

Fredrik
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by Tam
Dear Fredrik,

I will not take that bet since, as I should have mentioned, I listened to it the next day (Radio 3's Ring in a day sillyness) and there was.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam! [Huge low bandwidth grin], Fredrik!
Posted on: 26 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:
Originally posted by Tam:
Dear Fredrik,

I agree.

I think I might perhaps modify what I said to this (which I suspect we agree on): no interpretation holds all the keys. In a work as diverse as the 9th symphony, where there is so much emotion and meaning on offer, no single interpretation is going to capture all of it.


Dear Tam,

I think the same could be said of this thread. No one has said it all (that would be impossible maybe)but many have made a valuable contribution to what may become a whole and this has proved to be a great thread.

Erik
Posted on: 27 April 2006 by Nigel Cavendish
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:

Fredrik responds:

Dear Nigel,

That is precisely the point. You make my point, actually... There is no objective way of defining what the meaning in any music is...then clearly there is no music in you....

Do you honestly mean that you find no meaning in say the slow movement of Bach Two Violin Concero for example, where the message is rather clear and obvious.... but I cannot explain it anymore than I can explain why a sunrise is beautiful!

All the best from Fredrik


And Fredrik, you make my point: you find meaning in Bach; you find beauty in a sunset.

Perhaps I enjoy music differently from you, not that it matters, and I dare say we will have to agree to differ on this - again not a problem.
Posted on: 27 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Nigel,

I am not trying for a fight, and I do see that we are definately drawing different things from music.

I would very much enjoy to read what your take on this is, if you feel inclined to post it here.

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 27 April 2006 by BarryD
Gents,

A few late night reflections on this subject, although frankly I struggle to put thoughts into words...

‘Emotion’ or ‘quality’ of music for any listener must surely be ultimately subjective – it happens each time a listener hears a performance of music. Their judgement applies to the music, the performance (and even to the reproduction of a recording), and the quality depends upon what is heard, but also on the way in which it’s heard.

Considering the latter, it is essentially what the listener brings to the listening; their knowledge of the music, experience of previous performances, an opinion of how the piece ‘should’ sound, what emotions are associated for him/her with the music. (Or even, according to other threads, depending upon whether the listener has had a good run, or a decent glass of red wine – I agree, and one followed by the other is excellent!)

An individual’s taste in music varies according to circumstance, and certainly evolves, as do his ability to discern a correct performance, to detect and understand the interpretation of the performer, and even judge how well it has been reproduced by Hi-Fi system. Hence judgement of musical & performance quality cannot be purely objective. (Good thing too)

Appreciation of music seems to parallel that of wine, we start on the young, sweet and accessible; some of us mature slowly onto the older, more tannic and robust, which need experience and knowledge to fully appreciate, whilst others stop part way between.

For example, my teenage children primarily have experience of modern indie and rap, however within those genres they already actively differentiate (more ably than I, who have little knowledge of ‘their’ music) between the clichéd and the passionate, the original and the hackneyed. I draw the same distinctions myself, but predominantly in the music types where I have the ability to judge best, being a very modest player of electric blues guitar. I can not try to convince them in words that their music is, to me, immature or crude, but I can try to educate their palette when I have them captive in the car occasionally.

At least in electric blues, I ‘know’ when I hear a great performance, but analysing why it is great comes later. However, analysis will usually show that I enjoy a combination of music that is honest and not contrived, a performance unfettered by lack of technique, and the investment of some ‘soul’ or emotion into the playing. It helps (for a recording) when it is unprocessed, and the instrumental tone is good.

I lack wide experience of different performances of classical music, but it seems the same criteria apply for you.

Two last thoughts:

– somehow music played and recorded live always seems ultimately the most satisfying
– I was given a vinyl recording of Maria Callas singing Lucia di Lammermoor, mono and scratched, and despite not knowing opera at all, it tightens my throat every time I play it. Who knows why – I can’t even understand it.

Regards, Barry
Posted on: 30 April 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,

I have had the experience of having my ears opened to the beauties of a long known to me work for the first time in the last 24 hours! I first was aquainted with the Second Piano Concerto of Beethoven in about 1972, when I got the recording of Daniel Barenboim woth Otto Klemperer on HMV. [Best HMV LPs cost £2.10 in those days and I had to save up!].

I have had perhaps five different readings since and kept only two of them as being close to being illuninating but ultimately failing for me to be comprehensively so. It is a fact that Beethoven wrote appologetically to his publisher offering this concerto in B Flat for sale, that the work was "admitted less fine than the Concerto in C, but still worth the trouble..."

What Beethoven was doing was trying to get his real first Concerto sold, whereas his actual second was published first - the one ine in C, which we now call the First.

The B Flat Concerto is not the great work that the C Major Concerto is, but until now I had never really been convinced of its worth either. Solomon Cutner's reading, out on Testamant demolished this myth in one go, so for me this is a great an illuninating reading. The strange thing about this is that in my experience this illumination then extends to me enjoying other performances more, and not a feeling that only Solomon holds the key.

To get back to the topic, it seems to me that truly great music making serves the music in just this way, enabling the listener to comprehend the music, because the performing artist-musiciains have so thoroughly compreheneded it already, and then project this understanding through the means of performance.

In this way one may conclude that a great performance comes very close to bringing out the intentions of the composer, who if one can conceed that they had a reason to write the music and cared about its effect on the listener, then the effect should be considerable.

In fact this comes close to explaining the nebulous nature of expression in music. The only way I could demonstrate it would be to get some doubter here and happily enjoy actually listening to the performances and seeing if we could agree about the effect, as trying to describe the means is like trying to pin a flying butterfly! Once pinned, it certainly no longer flies, so the opperation becomes moot!

This Concerto is one of those rare moments when I failed to understand what Beethoven was trying to achieve, whereas mostly I got his music, and that of Bach, and Haydn straight off, even as a child...

ATB from fredrik