No need to alter MP perks.

Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 11 May 2009

It seems that a minority of MPs have managed modest or very modest claims against costs, which are entirely unobjectionable.

I would argue that MPs have given themselves enough rope to hang themselves with the current self-enacted system.

This is a very good thing as it has allowed some of them to make proper fools of themselves, and thus demonstrate their true colours in a way their dissembling mouths do not adequately seem to do.

This is a very useful information and should be used in helping memebrs of the electorate form a judgement about whom they choose to vote for at the next election.

What is splendid is that the Daily Telegraph has had the bravery to publish these details, and thus once again demonstrating that the real guardians of democracy in the UK are not the elected Memebers of Parliament, but the free press.

What we need is not a change in the rules, but to leave this self hanging rope there so that the free press can trap greedy pigs with their snouts in the trough!

Discuss, ... if you like!

ATB from George

PS: I am inclined to think that a greater turn out at the election would be likely if there were one more line than traditionally on Ballot Papers. One which read

"None of the above."

If the "None of the aboves" formed the largest single block of votes than all the candidates selected by their sponsering parties would be rejected and a new election of a different set of candidates should be sprung following deselection of the existing crew and selection of a new collection more worth voting for.

Thus there would be no reason why people like Gordon Brown should ever darken the gangway of the House Of Commons again, which I would consider to be a very good thing ...
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:
PS: I am inclined to think that a greater turn out at the election would be likely if there were one more line than traditionally on Ballot Papers. One which read

"None of the above."

If the "None of the aboves" formed the largest single block of votes than all the candidates selected by their sponsering parties would be rejected and a new election of a different set of candidates should be sprung following deselection of the existing crew and selection of a new collection more worth voting for.

George, what a terrific idea!!!! however, your subliminal mind might be at work. I think you will find the above proposition mirrors mine, published on this forum sometime in the last 12 months.

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Don,

There are times when our minds work so very similarly!

I wonder if it the old case of "great minds thinking alike!"

But I do think we should leave the temptations of the current system of perks in place for MPs so that they could actually be caught out by actions, as it were!

Highly valuable to know that MP X thought it was a sensible use of Joe Public's to money to spend on this or that frippery.

The fact that he thus shows himself a man of poor judgement and limited integrity is worth far more than the cost of paying him his little bit of piggy greed.

I don't want out MPs infantilised, and prevented from excercising free will!

ATB from George
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by deadlifter
It`s alway`s been a problem sorting the wheat from the chaff, but i suspect big change`s in the near future including Mr Brown`s demise
Winker
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
For all the use they are we could disolve Parliament tomorrow, sort through who the are rotters, and hold an election in July without the trough pigs, and that would eliminate perhaps 80 per cent of the current members [both sides] and set off with a cleaner sheet than the rubbish that most of them appear to be.

If they want to defend themselves by saying they broke no rules, then let us apply this rather simple one, which must have been quite apparent to an honourable minority of them,

"Does this claim bring the honourable name of Members Of Parliament, generally, into disrepute?"

Those who made disreputable claims should be so throughly rubbished in the press that, which ever side they represent, they would loose their deposit if they would even dare to stand for election.

Personally I would like to see the local party associations of all the major parties, making some radical deselections, and replacement with at least so far unsullied new candidates.

Terms like a task for Hercules, and his Fifth Labour - Cleaning out the Augean Stables, come to my mind.

Let us clear out these useless, greedy, slimy, and pathetic indivuals, who are so out of touch with what is normally considered a decent standard of behavious, in a way that will remove the influence of a whole generation of corrupt and odious hangers on in one fell swoop. Then we can get on with putting the damage done by Brown and Blair right, though that is work for double the length of their term. Twenty-five years minimum of payback for Mr Prudence Brown's un-brilliance unfortunately.

ATB from George
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by pjl
I agree 100% George, your thoughts entirely echo my own rants at home earlier today! Trouble is I cannot see this mess ever getting sorted. There are simply too many people at the top making lots of money and very comfortable lives for themselves, and too many "underlings" only too happy to play along with their masters in the hope of getting a slice of the action. Who was it that said "Absolute power corrupts absolutely"?!

Peter
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by Don Atkinson
George

I like your sentiment but.......

You can't put a tempting bowl of legitimet sweeteners in front of Homo Sapiens (Sapient Pig ?), remind them that they are legally entitled to indulge but......society will frown upon anybody who dips his fingers into the bowl!!!!!

Or have I missed some aspect of your (and my) concern?

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
Dear Peter,

The thought that it cannot be fixed had occured to me too.

I do not know the answer, but it is a tribute to that august institution, The Daily Telegraph, normally considered such an establishment organ, that it could manage what it has and so comprhensively shown to be fools, MPs from all sides, that there is hope that the old top may be shifted even by some rather close to it, or possibly formerly so, such as the Telegraph.

Shame it was not a left leaning paper like the Guardian, but I suspect the left are all sticking together [closing ranks] with a view that extinction for New Labour is nigh inevitable now ...

ATB from George
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
George

I like your sentiment but.......

You can't put a tempting bowl of legitimet sweeteners in front of Homo Sapiens (Sapient Pig ?), remind them that they are legally entitled to indulge but......society will frown upon anybody who dips his fingers into the bowl!!!!!

Or have I missed some aspect of your (and my) concern?

Cheers

Don


You have it exactly right.

Leave a little public temptation in the way so that only the good ones demonstrate self-restraint.

No reason to alter the claims rules, but simply make sure that the claims are published widely as they are being by the Telegraph.

ATB from George
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by Mat Cork
I was hoping to see 'table for naim hifi' one grand....the tabloids would never have believed that one.
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by Christopher_M
Nice one Mat! Big Grin

Best, Chris
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by pjl
We may only hope that some process akin to natural selection will operate and in the fullness of time only those with "clean minds" will prosper.

Peter
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
I would think most companies would rather not be associated with them just now.

But the trust issue is not one of changing the system of expenses claims, so that they cannot go wrong, but rather throwing enough light onto the actions of MPs so that they behave because it is too shameful to carry on as now, as it were hoping to keep all the shame faced greed out of the public gaze. To make fools of all of of us as tax paying members of the public, without us ever [hopefully] knowing. It shows contempt for the honest working man, and actions certainly speak louder than words. And contempt certainly breads mutual contempt.

Then in time they may be trusted somewhat more.

As it stands, it does appear that very few of them have honesty or integrity in the list of personal virtues ...

No one should be affraid to point out to their MP at a constituency surgery what they think of the situation.

ATB from George
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by Christopher_M
quote:
No one should be affraid to point out to their MP at a constituency surgery what they think of the situation


Or in the polling booth.

Regards, Chris
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by pjl
If MP's and the like behaved as public servants, as they are supposed to be, then public opinion would carry some weight. The reality is of course virtually the opposite - all these people are entirely self-serving and public opinion matters little to them so long as they can still play their games.

Peter
Posted on: 11 May 2009 by JamieL
quote:
Originally posted by pjl:
If MP's and the like behaved as public servants, as they are supposed to be, then public opinion would carry some weight. The reality is of course virtually the opposite - all these people are entirely self-serving and public opinion matters little to them so long as they can still play their games.

Peter

It is over twenty years since I worked in Whitehall as a civil servant processing letters to and from MPs. At that time I was surprised by the attitudes of some MPs in both a positive and negative way.

Some MPs dogmatically followed their party lines and had no cares for the public they were supposed to represent, but some surprised me. Some who I might have expected to be the most dogmatic in their beliefs were at heart constituency MPs who wholeheartedly performed their duty to represent the needs of their constituents, even when this meant questioning the policies, or views of their own party.

They did not shout about their representing their constituents, it was probably something they preferred to keep quite in the name of party unity, but never the less, they did their elected job.

I hope that there are still some similar MPs, I suspect less these days, but I hope some keep the traditions and duty of representing those who put them in Parliament through their votes foremost in their daily work.
Posted on: 12 May 2009 by roo
I feel sorry for the MPs as there is a limit imposed by the John Lewis test of £700 for a stereo. You can't even expense a Nait5i these days. It just shows how mad joe public thinks Hi-Fi nuts are when the thought of spending £700 on a complete Hi-Fi raised a few eyebrows.

I do think this whole episode just shows how poor politicians are at devising laws and rules. You would have thought they would have considered that some MPs would game the system and put in place rules to prevent flipping and the like.
Posted on: 12 May 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:
Or in the polling booth.

....where you will probably be simply voting for a different pig.

Unless, of course, each candidate must declare up front, how deep he/she intents to shove their snout into the expenses trough. Might work?

George, relying on MPs in the current Parliament to show widespread restraint on the expenses front simply won't work. Nice idea, but.......

....a bit like telling bankers (not tellers) that unlimited bonuses are entirely legal, but we (the public and/or shareholders)... "would much prefer that you showed considerable restraint and forgo bonuses and simply draw modest salaries of between £75k and £100k pa."

Bit like pissing into the proverbial wind.

How many of the present MPs will repay LARGE sums of "dodgy" expenses (never mind the odd bar of Kit-Kat or dog food)? My guess? None!

How many of the present MPs will be prosecuted over "dodgy" expenses?. My guess? None!

Far better for the state to provide each MP who lives more that (say) 60 minutes commute from Euston/Kings Cross/Liverpool Street/Waterloo/Canon Street/Blackfriars/Victoria/Paddington/Marlebone with a modest, rent-free home in Westminster for the duration of their term. Possibly.

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 12 May 2009 by Don Atkinson
quote:
I was hoping to see 'table for naim hifi' one grand....the tabloids would never have believed that one.

...or

"to cost of replacing 25 light bulbs including fitting - £80. Plus cost of replacing 4xkettle-leads at £400 each plus fitting by expert from Leicester - total = £2k"

People might then start asking if some of these MPs were nuts

Cheers

Don
Posted on: 12 May 2009 by Bob McC
jamiel
Then there are MPs like mine.
A brilliant constituency MP. renowned for the work he does locally.
Considered in his party a maverick who won't take the party whip and so never rose to the top.
Yet he was revealed over a year a go as one of the worst trough nuzzlers and is expected to be de-selected because of his outrageous claims for which he was censured.
Posted on: 12 May 2009 by 555
Posted on: 12 May 2009 by JamieL
'Whoever you vote for, the government always gets in', I think is a quote from the late, great Bill Hicks. The title of an article he wrote for The NME regarding the 1992 US presidential election.

He may have been quoting from an earlier use though.

Bob:
In those days, good constituency MPs could rise to become a secretary of state, as the one who most surprised me had.

It is sad that some who do good work, have also been feeding at the trough.

Perhaps as with other jobs, it is not necessarily the nicest people who do the best best work.
Posted on: 12 May 2009 by 555
Whoever you vote for, Government wins

IMSMC Crass 1982
Posted on: 12 May 2009 by Diccus62
...........................I'm off to pay the Moat chappie.......now where did I put my new chandelier
Posted on: 13 May 2009 by QTT
All of these accused corruptions happen because these British MPs get paid at extremely low salaries? at ~64K pounds as I am told.
Posted on: 14 May 2009 by deadlifter
quote:
Originally posted by QTT:
All of these accused corruptions happen because these British MPs get paid at extremely low salaries? at ~64K pounds as I am told.


WHAT, i would not mind 64 grand for doing next to nothing
Red Face