DG's Nelson - Decent value?

That's amazing value, there are indeed some stonkers there, I might indulge.

Cheers for the heads up!

Lovely. I'm a bit of a sucker for these gargantuan box sets anyway, as it's a great way to sample huge chunks of repertoire at low cost. This one contains a couple of CDs I've had my eye on anyway (Grimaud's "Credo", and Emerson Quartet's performance of The Art of Fugue). Will definitely be getting this.

Nigel

Fascinating performers list. Hardly any Karajan. A lot more interesting than some of those boring 'complete composers' sets, IMHO.


Bro

* On reflection, decided to remove list of items 1-162, cos probably Richard will get cross.

But it's a tremendous list of music and recordings, across the periods and genres.

* On reflection, decided to remove list of items 163-281, cos probably Richard will get cross.

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
But it's a tremendous list of music and recordings, across the periods and genres.

I am appalled at the lack of anything written in the twentieth century!
Apart from West side story and a bit of Arvo Part, and a bit of John Corigliano (who he?)...

DG has had periodic spasms of interest in issuing contemporary music - eg their vinyl Avant garde series in the late 60s, and the 20/21 series which came out around the turn of the millennium. They may have sold back the rights to the Stockhausen records they released, but there are some decent Boulez CDs and other post 1950 works they could/should have included.

But, as there is, extraordinarily, not even any Schoenberg, Berg or Webern, I suppose it is not surprising that noone else gets a look in either.
The poverty of representation of any of DG's excellent C20 music records almost seems like a calculated attempt to airbrush the century from the records; ironically, the century in which the record company has largely existed.

No

Yes

Value is most commonly based on or linked to substance, not ideals. For anyone who is new to "classical" music this is a fantastic way to quickly get exposure to a nice sampling of great music. I may eventually pick this up even though I already own a large selection of what is in here. For the money, it it still tremendous value for me to get this for what I do not have.

Jeremy,
While I understand your frustration, I am not sure it is properly placed. DGG has made no claim that this set should represent all composers from the past 111 years. In fact, from the product description, it is clear that [DGG's] philosophy has always been “the greatest recordings by the greatest artists in the world.” Furthermore, it is clear that DGG's market focus (audience) has never been Schoenberg, Berg or Webern. I'm not sure what label does focus more particularly on 20th century music of this kind but I'm sure you can find these recordings easily.

Best Regards,
Doug

quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Marchant:

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:
But it's a tremendous list of music and recordings, across the periods and genres.

I am appalled at the lack of anything written in the twentieth century!
Apart from West side story and a bit of Arvo Part, and a bit of John Corigliano (who he?)...

DG has had periodic spasms of interest in issuing contemporary music - eg their vinyl Avant garde series in the late 60s, and the 20/21 series which came out around the turn of the millennium. They may have sold back the rights to the Stockhausen records they released, but there are some decent Boulez CDs and other post 1950 works they could/should have included.

But, as there is, extraordinarily, not even any Schoenberg, Berg or Webern, I suppose it is not surprising that noone else gets a look in either.
The poverty of representation of any of DG's excellent C20 music records almost seems like a calculated attempt to airbrush the century from the records; ironically, the century in which the record company has largely existed.

Jeremy,

As concerns your indignation over the omission of more modern works in DG's set, in substance, I agree with you. Though I don't share your sense of betrayal, having long ago gotten over the fact that to most people, the music you speak of is not even considered "music". More is the pity..

As has been pointed out by Florestan, these box set releases are commercial ventures that seve the dual purpose of promoting 1) The label (in this case Deutsche Grammaphone) and 2) The artists who record(ed) with said label. From this standpoint, the omission of say Stockhausens 'Hymen' or Hans Werner Henzes 'Tristan" is entirely understandable. DG is, after all, a private, for profit company and feels little obligation to "educate" it's potential audience.

Speaking more generally, and having the perspective of a former broadcaster, I can tell you that it is less the record labels liability here than it is the general public's refusal to appreciate the more challenging works of the last century. Many is the time I had been at the board at some station that happened, through no fault of it's own (since modern music was never played by choice at any public or commercial station that I worked at) by chance a broadcast they were playing went from a Beethoven Symphony to Shoenberg's Chamber Concerto, with little introduction. It would only be a matter of time before the listeners vented their disapproval. Amazing how indignant and outraged sensitive souls can get over something as harmless as mere sounds. Turn it off ?? Huh, not for these discerning music critics. No, the pleasant wafting of 'classical muzic' is not a privilege,.. but a divine right. Apparently..,.

Perhaps the bulk of this more challenging art music comes from a more leisurely time, when jolting the average staid, placid concert goer was more in need. In today's stress filled world, music is a balm to frazzled nerves. Music essentially serves the same function as a good back rub, a cheap masseuse, or perhaps a vibrating bed complete with magic fingers. This is not to ridicule these things because, after all, we need our stress reducers and music can serve this function as well as any other product or service.

Yes, I say this with certain a hint of sarcasm.

And,.. of course, never mind that, to the vast unwashed minions, anything that lasts longer than three minutes, does not have words, and has the same three chords, is considered to be challenging.

So if you want to point the finger a the villain, look no further than those around you.

Two things are required (IMHO) to appreciate non tonal music: 1) An imagination of some sort 2) An open mind.

When I was at college I found a surprising number of amateur musicians who seemed lacking in those two virtues (one of them was my best friend). For many of them, music was logical and needed to follow certain rigid rules and they could not bear to have their pleasant sanctuary invaded by "noise".

Remember, imagination is something that allows you to appreciate anything outside of your own limited experience. It is not something that you necessarily find in abundance...


Bro

quote:

Originally posted by Big Brother:
As has been pointed out by Florestan, these box set releases are commercial ventures that seve the dual purpose of promoting 1) The label (in this case Deutsche Grammaphone) and 2) The artists who record(ed) with said label. From this standpoint, the omission of say Stockhausens 'Hymen' or Hans Werner Henzes 'Tristan" is entirely understandable. DG is, after all, a private, for profit company and feels little obligation to "educate" it's potential audience.

Of ocurse, you're right. I guess I was imagining that DG would like to show its modest credentials as a promoter of newish music. And EMI managed it: in a 16CD set just of twentieth century music it found room for Tippett, Lutoslawski, Boulez, Penderecki, Messiaen, Birtwistle, Dutilleux, Henze, Takemitsu, Turnage, Schnittke, Maw, and Adès as well as the ussual suspects.
(www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//2175002.htm)

(And I must say Stockhausen's "Hymen" is one of the more felicitous Freudian slips I have seen recently!)

It looks like a nice, big box of easily marketed, oft reissued (in many cases) recordings. The lack of 20th Century repertoire is a blight on the project, but even more of a blight is the lack of historical recordings. I quickly perused the recordings and see pretty much nothing from the pre-war years. In a set celebrating DG's 111 years, I would have thought that at least Artur Nikisch's 1913 recording of LvB's Fifth would be included, however ancient the sound. Ditto some of Kempff's pre-war Beethoven. And some of the pre-war vocal recordings. I understand tilting toward more recent recordings, but to betray an old, vast heritage makes this a dud. (Maybe I missed the oldies in my scanning.)


--

quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:
It looks like a nice, big box of easily marketed, oft reissued (in many cases) recordings. The lack of 20th Century repertoire is a blight on the project, but even more of a blight is the lack of historical recordings...

Good point.

quote:

And,.. of course, never mind that, to the vast unwashed minions, anything that lasts longer than three minutes, does not have words, and has the same three chords, is considered to be challenging.

Tsk tsk B.B. getting a bit uppity here 'aint we

quote:

Originally posted by Howlinhounddog:

Tsk tsk B.B. getting a bit uppity here 'aint we

But really Howlinhounddog, in real life I'm just modest little schmoo. A really harmless piece of fluff. Now if I was a super nice, modest guy in person and on internet Forums,... wouldn't it all just be too much ?

By the way, for those of you in the know, in addition to my unfortunate misspelling of the word Hymnen. I referred to a "Schoenberg Chamber Concerto". Should have been the Chamber Symphony #2. Would have to be his second work in this form, as the first is transitional early work, not thoroughly embedded in the atonal idiom.

Bro

Can somebody post a link to what's on it?

Surely there cannot be NO C.20th music on it?
Does that mean no Shostakovich or Prokofiev?.... given that Karajan's 1967 Shostakovich 10 (and I normally can't stand Karajan) or Argerich/Abbado's Prokofiev 3rd concerto are amongst the best ever then that is a shame! Jochum's Carmina Burana? Myung Wung Chung's Messian? surely some of that has got to be there?

Just Google it...you'll get DG's site

quote:

Originally posted by Todd A:
... I would have thought that at least Artur Nikisch's 1913 recording of LvB's Fifth would be included...--

'cos that recording is owned by EMI. It appeared on their Berlin Philharmonic Anniversary set in 2002.

quote:

Originally posted by beebie:
'cos that recording is owned by EMI. It appeared on their Berlin Philharmonic Anniversary set in 2002.

It's out of copyright, so no one owns it, though someone presumably possesses the metal masters.

DG has issued it several times in the past, including in the complete Beethoven edition from the 90s. I'd have to check the info to verify the original recording company, but I believe it was recorded by the German offshoot of HMV, which later morphed into DG.


--

The German branch of HMV was confiscated by the German Government during WW1. HMV got their own back by refusing to allow the German branch to continue to sell recordings made from the period when HMV and the German branches were sister companies, and removing the right to use the Nipper - Dog and Gramophone - trademark. I believe that the metal masters are still at EMI for the pre-1914 Nikesch series of recordings.

For a while the German company continued to release records with a gramophone without the dog in the trademark, but this looked daft enough for the company to rapidly change this slightly sad looking trademerk and morph into the competitor company [Polydor] it would continue as for many years, before being part of the merger that would produce Universal.

Meanwhile EMI established the new German branch of HMV called Electrola, which was not to loose its autonomy of action under the Nazi's and continues to trade today as a sister company of EMI.

ATB from George.

I hope who ever owns the masters to the 1913 Nikisch Beethoven 5th takes good care of them. Once you get used to the sound, you find that this is a fascinating reading. Severe, idiosyncratic, but full of fire and passion. No one would dare perform it that way today, so it's our loss

I used to have the performance on a Lp collection: '100 years of the Berlin Philharmonic' (on DG) and there is no way the original sounded that bad. Put this on an old Victrola and it would light up the room. But hopefully someday someone will know how to transfer 78's better than the likes of Ward Mattson or Kieth Hardwick (the two stooges, I call them). People generally shy away from the sound of these old recordings, and I can see why.

Bro

Dear BB,

It would be my assumption that DG are working from ancient shelac pressings [which degrade with time unless stored ideally] as the one movement I have of this from an issue by EMI has their usual almost silent surface as it would have been transferred by them from new vinyl pressings taken of the restored stamper parts. The recording has enough weight and clarity for one to almost think it might have been made electrically with a microphone.

DG have never been that good at restoring their pre-1945 Polydor 78 issues [sounds like they have lost the original master parts] whereas EMI almost always come up trumps with their glorious historic catalogue in modern restorations.

I am glad that I have heard the first movement of this performance, but I cannot warm to the music making, but then was are all different.

Better than the Beethoven is the recording with the LSO of Weber's Overture Oberon [recorded at the HMV studio in their factory in City Road, Hayes in Middlesex], where Nikisch - or so it seems to me - is completely in his element as a Germanic romanticist of the first quality!

ATB from George

I bought this box-set on the strength of this thread, and I'm glad I did, thanks for the tip.

Working my way through them with relish. I played the Mahler V first to discover just how the "Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra of Venezuela" was keeping this company and I could see why.

The presentation is lovely and frankly the fact that it does not occupy the space of 55 cd boxes is a real bonus for me.

Cheers

Rod

I've since looked in more detail at this set again. I have 28 of the 55 cd's already in my library. Did it make sense for me to buy the whole box? I could come to no other conclusion than a resounding yes! I can give away or sell the duplication. I'm still getting 27 new albums for about fiver each. What stinks is that I paid full price for the first 28 albums....

For anyone who may only have a handful or none of the contents at the moment this really turns into a great deal. A good cross-section of music performed by a group of outstanding performers from the last century or so.

Regards,
Doug