Advice on Choosing a Secondhand System
Posted by: Jack911 on 25 November 2003
I am planning the purchase of my first Naim system and have now almost definitely decided on the 82/180 combination for the amplification. This was chosen in preference to the 52/250 due to the higher cost and also the requirement for a supercap. The 52/180 was rejected for the same reason and, since the 250 has no output to power an 82, the 82/250 combination was also rejected. Comments or advice on this choice are welcome.
My problem now lies in selecting a CD source. I've noticed that some forum members recommend buying new as CD players, unlike amplifiers, are subject to wear. I also expect that it is only the new 5i which can play CDR???? etc. My choice then comes down to either a new CD5i or a secondhand unit, probably a recent CDX.
Since the 5i is yet to be released, can anyone comment on suitability and differences between a new CD5 and a used CDX within this context?
My problem now lies in selecting a CD source. I've noticed that some forum members recommend buying new as CD players, unlike amplifiers, are subject to wear. I also expect that it is only the new 5i which can play CDR???? etc. My choice then comes down to either a new CD5i or a secondhand unit, probably a recent CDX.
Since the 5i is yet to be released, can anyone comment on suitability and differences between a new CD5 and a used CDX within this context?
Posted on: 25 November 2003 by Geofiz
Jack,
I have no problem playing any CD-R disc on my CDS1 or on the CD3.5. The CDS will play discs even if they are not "finalized", often playing discs that more modern players (including the supposedly multi-format portable players) will not play.
If you are in doubt about a players ability to play a CD-R, take one with you to audition the player you are interested in.
Cheers,
I have no problem playing any CD-R disc on my CDS1 or on the CD3.5. The CDS will play discs even if they are not "finalized", often playing discs that more modern players (including the supposedly multi-format portable players) will not play.
If you are in doubt about a players ability to play a CD-R, take one with you to audition the player you are interested in.
Cheers,
Posted on: 25 November 2003 by Markus
You have good taste in equipment. This combo is stunning and should provide years of satisfactory service. It is good enough that the comparitive differences between the various cd player ranges should be readily apparent. A recent vintage CDX would be my first choice...
Markus
====
Markus
====
Posted on: 25 November 2003 by greeny
I think the 82/180 is a wise choice also (as long as you havn't got really hard to drive speakers). It is a very versatile combination allowing many upgrade possibilities (if you want them after a year or two).
The CDX is the perfect complement for an 82 based system and would make an excellent buy. With the introduvtion of the new range there are a few CDX's about.
Don't worry too much about the fact they wear, of course they do but should the worst happen you will be able to get it repaired via Naim. If you get one < 3 years old you should have many years of trouble free use.
P.S. When my CDS3 arrives (a couple of weeks) you would be able to get my old CDX via Audio Councel in Cheadle (not too convenient for London I know)
The CDX is the perfect complement for an 82 based system and would make an excellent buy. With the introduvtion of the new range there are a few CDX's about.
Don't worry too much about the fact they wear, of course they do but should the worst happen you will be able to get it repaired via Naim. If you get one < 3 years old you should have many years of trouble free use.
P.S. When my CDS3 arrives (a couple of weeks) you would be able to get my old CDX via Audio Councel in Cheadle (not too convenient for London I know)
Posted on: 25 November 2003 by prowla
Hi.
1. How do you power the 82?
2. My CDX and previous CD3.5 play CDR media (not MP3 files though!).
Paul Rowlands
1. How do you power the 82?
2. My CDX and previous CD3.5 play CDR media (not MP3 files though!).
Paul Rowlands
Posted on: 25 November 2003 by greeny
82 can be powered directly from a 180, hence one reason Jack has chosen not to go down the 250 route at this point.
Posted on: 25 November 2003 by prowla
greeny - thanks for clarifying that (I thought the 82 needed at least a Hi-Cap)...
Paul Rowlands
Paul Rowlands
Posted on: 25 November 2003 by Jack911
Graham,
How powerfull is a 140 compared to a 180? I take it from your comments that there's a substantial price difference between the two, is that the case?
My room is 6m by 4m with 3m ceilings. I'm thinking of Neat Mystique speakers. Any thoughts?
Jack.
[This message was edited by Jack911 on WEDNESDAY 26 November 2003 at 08:23.]
How powerfull is a 140 compared to a 180? I take it from your comments that there's a substantial price difference between the two, is that the case?
My room is 6m by 4m with 3m ceilings. I'm thinking of Neat Mystique speakers. Any thoughts?
Jack.
[This message was edited by Jack911 on WEDNESDAY 26 November 2003 at 08:23.]
Posted on: 26 November 2003 by Alex S.
Jack,
I'd step further back in time and go for 32.5/Supercap/250. Not only would this sound better IMO than 82/180 but it allows you to add the 52 head unit later. The upgrade trail wouldn't lose you any money since you can sell a 32.5 for what you paid for it.
Alex
I'd step further back in time and go for 32.5/Supercap/250. Not only would this sound better IMO than 82/180 but it allows you to add the 52 head unit later. The upgrade trail wouldn't lose you any money since you can sell a 32.5 for what you paid for it.
Alex
Posted on: 26 November 2003 by greeny
I think an 82/hi/250 would beat a 32.5/Super/250 at a similar price. But either way we are talking much more money than 82/180
140's can be had cheaper than 180's but I don't know how easy the Neat Mystique's are to drive.
Either way I don't think he needs to worry about losing money, any of these purchases could be sold on for at or near their purchase price.
140's can be had cheaper than 180's but I don't know how easy the Neat Mystique's are to drive.
Either way I don't think he needs to worry about losing money, any of these purchases could be sold on for at or near their purchase price.
Posted on: 26 November 2003 by Alex S.
greeny,
I tried it for 2 months - 32.5/SC won hands down in my system. Should be able to get 32.5/SC/250 for around 2K.
I tried it for 2 months - 32.5/SC won hands down in my system. Should be able to get 32.5/SC/250 for around 2K.
Posted on: 26 November 2003 by Jean-Marc
Jack,
I would advice you to be very careful on which piece of kit you will finally go for.
IMHO (and I used to run a 82 / 1, then 2 hicaps / 180, then 250):
- I don't think the 180 goes very well with the 82 (a 250 is a natural and more balanced choice),
- with powering a 82 from a 180, you will not get what the 82 is about to give,
- always think source first: with a 82, I think you must have at least a CDX (better a CDX/XPS combo), otherwise you will hear all the shortcomings of your source (I ran a CD3.5 for a few months before upgrading to a CDS2 in front of my former 82).
If you intend to use rather "easy" speakers in a moderate sized room, have you thought of maximising your source first (say a s/h CDX+XPS), using a good support, having a dedicated mains spur installed and run a more modest pre/amp (i even think of a Nait, or Nait5i, for example)?
You would have less "hi-fi" than with a 82/180, but much more satisfying music to listen to.
I have once made the mistake of upgrading my amp before my source.
hope this helps
Jean-Marc
I would advice you to be very careful on which piece of kit you will finally go for.
IMHO (and I used to run a 82 / 1, then 2 hicaps / 180, then 250):
- I don't think the 180 goes very well with the 82 (a 250 is a natural and more balanced choice),
- with powering a 82 from a 180, you will not get what the 82 is about to give,
- always think source first: with a 82, I think you must have at least a CDX (better a CDX/XPS combo), otherwise you will hear all the shortcomings of your source (I ran a CD3.5 for a few months before upgrading to a CDS2 in front of my former 82).
If you intend to use rather "easy" speakers in a moderate sized room, have you thought of maximising your source first (say a s/h CDX+XPS), using a good support, having a dedicated mains spur installed and run a more modest pre/amp (i even think of a Nait, or Nait5i, for example)?
You would have less "hi-fi" than with a 82/180, but much more satisfying music to listen to.
I have once made the mistake of upgrading my amp before my source.
hope this helps
Jean-Marc
Posted on: 26 November 2003 by prowla
I upgraded my 62+Hi/140 to 82+Hi/140 before upgrading my CD3.5+Hi to CDX.
I think the 82 was the bigger improvement.
I never tried the 82 powered off the 140 though.
I'm pretty happy with the way my system is now (CDX/82+2xHi/250).
Paul Rowlands
I think the 82 was the bigger improvement.
I never tried the 82 powered off the 140 though.
I'm pretty happy with the way my system is now (CDX/82+2xHi/250).
Paul Rowlands
Posted on: 27 November 2003 by Jack911
<Paul>
I'm pretty happy with the way my system is now (CDX/82+2xHi/250)
</Paul>
I imagine you are. This is the system which I pretty much aspire to.
Given the response to this thread, does anyone think that the 82 is really that bad a match for the 180?
If anything, the preamp is "above" the power amp which should satisfy the Mullet Police. Although I suspect these components were not marketed as partners in their day. Is that correct?
Jack.
I'm pretty happy with the way my system is now (CDX/82+2xHi/250)
</Paul>
I imagine you are. This is the system which I pretty much aspire to.
Given the response to this thread, does anyone think that the 82 is really that bad a match for the 180?
If anything, the preamp is "above" the power amp which should satisfy the Mullet Police. Although I suspect these components were not marketed as partners in their day. Is that correct?
Jack.
Posted on: 27 November 2003 by Alco
quote:
According to one Naim FAQ, the 140 is 70wpc vs 90wpc in the 180
Hmm, I always thought my (previous) NAP180 was 60wpc
regards,
Alco
Posted on: 28 November 2003 by Jean-Marc
Jack,
As I said in my first post, I'm not to keen on the 180, especially behind a 82. I've live with one for about two years.
IMHO, the 82 have to be powered off 1 or 2 Hicap (and not to say Supercap), so this may also be included in your budget.
If you have limited budget, start by maximising your source first, all other upgrades then after will be largely more appreciated.
JM
As I said in my first post, I'm not to keen on the 180, especially behind a 82. I've live with one for about two years.
IMHO, the 82 have to be powered off 1 or 2 Hicap (and not to say Supercap), so this may also be included in your budget.
If you have limited budget, start by maximising your source first, all other upgrades then after will be largely more appreciated.
JM
Posted on: 28 November 2003 by Noel
Jack,
CDX/82/180 is fine. It all depends on how much upgrading you want to do in the future. CDX/82/Hi-Cap/140 will sound better, but is slightly less powerfull and will probably cost a little more. If I had the money I'd probably go for this and then save for a 250 further down the line.
But if you have a fixed budget the CDX/82/180 will give years of pleasure. And you can still go down the XPS, CDS2, Hi-Cap, 2x Hi-Cap, SuperCap, 52, 250, 135 etc etc route in years to come.
Noel
CDX/82/180 is fine. It all depends on how much upgrading you want to do in the future. CDX/82/Hi-Cap/140 will sound better, but is slightly less powerfull and will probably cost a little more. If I had the money I'd probably go for this and then save for a 250 further down the line.
But if you have a fixed budget the CDX/82/180 will give years of pleasure. And you can still go down the XPS, CDS2, Hi-Cap, 2x Hi-Cap, SuperCap, 52, 250, 135 etc etc route in years to come.
Noel
Posted on: 28 November 2003 by Jack911
<ghunter>
The best advice I can give is ... figure out where you want to be in the long run, and try to take the fewest steps to get there.
</ghunter>
Hmmm, sounds like good advice. I think I eventually want to have CDX/82+HC+HC/250/Mystique. If I start with a 180 I don't need a HC straight up so I can get by with CDX/82/180 then add a HC and eventually trade up to a 250.
Going straight to a 250 means getting a HC as well and that's starting to get a bit expensive for the initial purchase.
The best advice I can give is ... figure out where you want to be in the long run, and try to take the fewest steps to get there.
</ghunter>
Hmmm, sounds like good advice. I think I eventually want to have CDX/82+HC+HC/250/Mystique. If I start with a 180 I don't need a HC straight up so I can get by with CDX/82/180 then add a HC and eventually trade up to a 250.
Going straight to a 250 means getting a HC as well and that's starting to get a bit expensive for the initial purchase.
Posted on: 28 November 2003 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by ghunter:
Jack,
The 140 is a surprisingly powerful amp given its small dimensions. According to one Naim FAQ, the 140 is 70wpc vs 90wpc in the 180
Graham,
the olive & chrome-bumper gear, the naming standard equates to the total power available driving a four-ohm load, e.g.:-
90 watts per channel x 2 channels = 180 watts, thus NAP180.
The NAP250 is capable of 125 watts per channel into four ohms, but is rated at 70 watts per channel into eight ohms.
The lower figures quoted above relate to eight-ohm loads.
I suspect that the new range no longer follows this rule, certainly as far as the NAP250 is concerned (it should probably have been renamed, but then it wouldn't have continued the "NAP250" tradition).
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne (at) Dial.Pipex.com. Put "Naim" in the title.
Posted on: 28 November 2003 by David Stewart
There is an archived copy of Naim's 1996 web-site here http://web.archive.org/web/19970125183745/www.naim-audio.com/welcome.html
This shows the NAP140 and 180 power amps output as 45W and 60W respectively, into an 8ohm load. No figures are quoted into 4ohm loads.
David
This shows the NAP140 and 180 power amps output as 45W and 60W respectively, into an 8ohm load. No figures are quoted into 4ohm loads.
David
Posted on: 28 November 2003 by Alex S.
That's three Naim upgrades a year! Glad I jumped ship.
Posted on: 28 November 2003 by Geofiz
An interesting thread for sure.
The upgrade path needn't be quite so complex.
Several contributors have mentioned knowing where you want to end up eventually and proceeding appropriately. One thing that hasn't been stressed enough however is to listen to the music along the way.
When I started on my Naim Odyssey 20 years ago, I aspired to the then "hot system" of 32/Hicap/250 driving Linn Saras. I was fortunate to be in a situation to profit from a dealer/friend in a tight spot and obtain the 32/Hicap/250 directly. This was followed on by the upgrade of the 32 to 32.5. The music generated by this system was exceptional, playing through some low end Advent 2002 and then Dayton Wright LCM-1s. If you are on a tight budget, you can still get exceptional performance from the 32.5/Hicap/250 (chrome bumper vintage) even today. If the 250 and Hicap have been recapped, then that is a true bonus. After about 10 years I happened across a used 42.5/Snaps/2x135s at my local Linn dealers when the LP12 was in for upgrade/service. The price was too good to be true, so I immediately bought the system. The 135s have since been recapped and when partnered with the 32.5/Hicap provided exceptional sound through first the Dayton Wright LCM-1s (until a nearby lightening strike took out the speakers) and were replaced by KEF Reference series 2 speakers. The 42.5/snaps/250 became the backup/office system.
The upgrade bug was sparked by the purchase of a secondhand 52/Supercap, which when partnered with the by now recapped 135s showed a tremendous improvement in all aspects (I should mention that the 52/supercap upgrade equalled the total spent to that date on the 32.5/Hicap/250 and 42.5/Snaps/135s purchases combined, including any servicing). The upgrading to the 52 resulting in the purchase of a secondhand CDS1/CDPS. Tuner has been an aging Quad FM-4 or Magnum Dynalab FT101a as I have yet to hear a Naim Tuner (extremely rare it seems).
Currently the main system of 52/Supercap/CDS/CDPS/2x135s/KEF Reference 2/LP12/Ittok/Lingo/Klyde/Teac 1010/Quad FM-4 (rebuilt) is producing very enjoyable music and the need to upgrade is not present (even after hearing the new 252/SC/300/CDS2).
The moral, if there is one, is to enjoy the music as much as the hardware. Do not upgrade for the sake of upgrading, but as opportunity permits and be prepared that when a major upgrade (such as going to a 52/Supercap or 252/Supercap 2,) to have to upgrade somewhere else (probably the source) relatively quickly to get back to that sense of balance you may have initially had.
In this respect, I would suggest going the 82/Hicap/250 route (even if the Hicap and 250 are chrome bumper series to save money) so that you can enjoy music for quite some time before seriously feeling the need to upgrade significantly until you have ammassed the funds to move up further in the Naim line. You will not be disappointed.
I have been fortunate in that all Naim dealers (London Audio, Stereo Factory, Sheridan Hi-Fi, and lately HiFiFoFum) I have dealt with over the past 20 plus years have been helpful and friendly, often calling me when they have a component in (new or used) that they think I may be interested in.
Just beware of a Naimaholic trait. It is very difficult to let ANY piece of Naim gear go as one upgrades, hence I have ammassed a collection of Naim gear over time and have virtually a Naim system of some sort in every room of the house.
Enjoy your first Naim system and definitely keep us all posted as to what you eventually purchase.
Cheers
[This message was edited by Geofiz on FRIDAY 28 November 2003 at 18:17.]
The upgrade path needn't be quite so complex.
Several contributors have mentioned knowing where you want to end up eventually and proceeding appropriately. One thing that hasn't been stressed enough however is to listen to the music along the way.
When I started on my Naim Odyssey 20 years ago, I aspired to the then "hot system" of 32/Hicap/250 driving Linn Saras. I was fortunate to be in a situation to profit from a dealer/friend in a tight spot and obtain the 32/Hicap/250 directly. This was followed on by the upgrade of the 32 to 32.5. The music generated by this system was exceptional, playing through some low end Advent 2002 and then Dayton Wright LCM-1s. If you are on a tight budget, you can still get exceptional performance from the 32.5/Hicap/250 (chrome bumper vintage) even today. If the 250 and Hicap have been recapped, then that is a true bonus. After about 10 years I happened across a used 42.5/Snaps/2x135s at my local Linn dealers when the LP12 was in for upgrade/service. The price was too good to be true, so I immediately bought the system. The 135s have since been recapped and when partnered with the 32.5/Hicap provided exceptional sound through first the Dayton Wright LCM-1s (until a nearby lightening strike took out the speakers) and were replaced by KEF Reference series 2 speakers. The 42.5/snaps/250 became the backup/office system.
The upgrade bug was sparked by the purchase of a secondhand 52/Supercap, which when partnered with the by now recapped 135s showed a tremendous improvement in all aspects (I should mention that the 52/supercap upgrade equalled the total spent to that date on the 32.5/Hicap/250 and 42.5/Snaps/135s purchases combined, including any servicing). The upgrading to the 52 resulting in the purchase of a secondhand CDS1/CDPS. Tuner has been an aging Quad FM-4 or Magnum Dynalab FT101a as I have yet to hear a Naim Tuner (extremely rare it seems).
Currently the main system of 52/Supercap/CDS/CDPS/2x135s/KEF Reference 2/LP12/Ittok/Lingo/Klyde/Teac 1010/Quad FM-4 (rebuilt) is producing very enjoyable music and the need to upgrade is not present (even after hearing the new 252/SC/300/CDS2).
The moral, if there is one, is to enjoy the music as much as the hardware. Do not upgrade for the sake of upgrading, but as opportunity permits and be prepared that when a major upgrade (such as going to a 52/Supercap or 252/Supercap 2,) to have to upgrade somewhere else (probably the source) relatively quickly to get back to that sense of balance you may have initially had.
In this respect, I would suggest going the 82/Hicap/250 route (even if the Hicap and 250 are chrome bumper series to save money) so that you can enjoy music for quite some time before seriously feeling the need to upgrade significantly until you have ammassed the funds to move up further in the Naim line. You will not be disappointed.
I have been fortunate in that all Naim dealers (London Audio, Stereo Factory, Sheridan Hi-Fi, and lately HiFiFoFum) I have dealt with over the past 20 plus years have been helpful and friendly, often calling me when they have a component in (new or used) that they think I may be interested in.
Just beware of a Naimaholic trait. It is very difficult to let ANY piece of Naim gear go as one upgrades, hence I have ammassed a collection of Naim gear over time and have virtually a Naim system of some sort in every room of the house.
Enjoy your first Naim system and definitely keep us all posted as to what you eventually purchase.
Cheers
[This message was edited by Geofiz on FRIDAY 28 November 2003 at 18:17.]
Posted on: 01 December 2003 by Jack911
After considering all the replies to this thread (for which I very much thank all of the authors concerned), I am now considering changing the amplification stage to a NAC72/NAP140 combination.
While this seems to cost around a third of the price of an 82/180 combination, the question remains: how does it compare sonically?
Does anyone have an opinion on this?
While this seems to cost around a third of the price of an 82/180 combination, the question remains: how does it compare sonically?
Does anyone have an opinion on this?
Posted on: 01 December 2003 by prowla
The 82 is a fine preamp that is suited to CD.
I'm not sure about the 72...
Paul Rowlands
I'm not sure about the 72...
Paul Rowlands