Bi Amping

The problem with this is the quality of the pre-amp, essentially you'll never get past the inherant quality of the pre-amp stage. It can offer benefits of scale, and take some of the current demands away from the integrated amp, if it's an int +pwr set up. But I think it's a cul de sac move on the way to hifi Nirvana ... you'll have to back up and go back down to the crossroads

Peter

Peter,

I appreciate the comments. It is essentially more scale I am trying to acheive. I have also been considering 2 other options, a) a second hand 72, b) a Numerik DAC for the CD.

What was your experience with bi amping in a little more detail? Did you combine it with bi wire?

Thanks

Milan

Milan

Get any of the following:

Hicap
32-5
72
110
140
150
160
180
Turntable

--Eric

Milan,

Bear in mind this is my opinion, but I've futzed around with various sideways moves trying to get more out of my system without making fundamental changes to the quality of the components.

You'll see in another thread where Tristan bemoans the lack of involvemnt from his biamped, with separate preamp, Arcam set up. Most of all scale starts with the source and finishes with the speakers, which is what Eric Barry's response indicates.

Until recently I was biamping (magnum IA160+MF160) into my speakers using Van den Hul or Straightwire quartet speaker cable. Before that I biwired. What was truly strangling the system was the line stage in the IA160, it wasn't passing the juice as it were. Biwire/Biamp is a way of selling more cable and more gear without addressing fundamental quality issues.

I just bought a Nait 5, I'm using NACA5 cable in single wire config, and when I asked my wife what was more powerful the Nait 5 (2*30W) or the Magnums (4*80W) she said the Nait. It'll be a long while before I buy another amp or new speakers

Pete

Quite a few years ago when I was in the trade and had lots of Naim gear to play with, I did try bi-amping. That is to say I tried using two stereo power amps, not as Naim insist on refering to bi-amping, the use of mono-blocks. As I remember the power amps were 140's. I cant say I wasvery wowed by the results and did not feel it was worth pursueing. It did not sound bad exactly, just no better and certainly not worth the hassle and expense. I did not buy it my self and ended up with a 250. Sorry that this is such a predictable response but it is what I found. When you write that you want more drive do you mean volume or dynamic punch. If you want a significant quantitative change I would seriously consider your speakers and their sensitivity. If it is the quality of reproduction you want to change I would consider your source. LP preferably as i still find CD (even Naim) to sound dynamically bdull both in a micro and macro sense.

One of the reasons I like Naim equipment is that I believe I can trust the Naim company.

With very few exceptions over the last 9 years (when I got my first Naim gear), I've found that the solutions recommended by Naim are the ones that provide the most satisfaction.

I'd suggest a demo at a good dealer.

Phil

The reason I am looking at Bi amping is to get more dynamic punch rather than pure volume. For the vynil fanatics I still own and listen to my LP12/RB300/BPS and do find it very satisfying.

From the consensus it seems that the 72 then 140 is the better route. I did some digging here. The cost of a 90 (used) plus 5m pair NACA5 plus Y lead (SNAIC or Chord self modified) would be virtually the same as a used 140 or used 72!

Milan

You get to sell the old amp too. So you should be able to get a 72/140, less what you get for the 62/90, for little more than what a second 90 and Nac A5 would cost.

You can drive two amps off a snaps, by the way--sockets 2 and 3.

By the way, if you are not using black snaics, these will sound like an amp upgrade all by themselves.

--Eric

I am contiuously amazed at the number of people that say that bi-amping is a waste of time. There are very good reasons to bi-amp but it has to be balanced with other buying alternatives. A 250 does sound better than two 180's. A 180 probably sounds better than two 140's but I haven't listened myself. There have been a number of chats around bi-amping and how this upsets the loading of the preamp. All I can say is that I do not subscribe to this point of view. I have a Supercap connected to my 52 and two 250's driving a pair of Nautilus 804's. I found that one 250 did not really get the speakers going although I did wait for them to get run in. The most noticable effect was at loud volumes where extremeties in voice definitely gave the 250 some problems. I wanted to biamp since the speakers were clearly designed for this. Naim Audio told me that biamping would give me a better sound but a pair of 135's would be even better. Quite frankly I believe them. Naim is one of those companies that you really can trust. It is, after all, trust that is built on experience and the test of time. But I had a 250 and did not want to sell this at a loss and invest in two 135's. So I opted for the second 250. The improvement was considerable after the warm up and burn in period. The extremeties in voice were handled with ease, the sound was bigger and more believable, the bass was more tightly contolled and the speed was supperb. I came to the conclusion that the 804 is a very difficult speaker to drive properly. Does two 135's sound better? probably because they deliver more current. Does two 250's (or any other biamping) overload the preamp? No way - at least according to the music. The impedance matching at these frequencies is not as critical as high-frequency engineering. The Supercap is, after all, designed with three stereo outputs. What actually happens is that the amps in a bi-amp configuration are used half as much as they would be normally. This means that listening levels can be higher. Secondly, biamping helps with the impedance variations caused by the driver units moving on the coils. This is a big problem because the very low impedance demands a very high current. My conclusion is that biamping does make a difference but it's an upgrade rather than a "go and buy a new biamped configuration" thing. Money is better spent on getting the best power amp money can buy. As to the 804's, they are moving at a phenomenal speed with all the PRat that I need for the moment!

Reading all this I'm not quite clear

Do 135ss always sound better than 2x250s or does it depend on speakers? Mine are Nautilus 805s

Like many others, I already had a 250 so bi-amping with another 250 cost me £550.00 second hand instead of x with 135s

This seemed like a cheap upgrade but I'm a little worried that I may fry the 805 tweeters

Just like to agree with everything NigelP has said. I have a pair of Shahinian Hawks - a notoriously difficult and current demanding load. These speakers are designed to be biamped. I went from a single NAP500 to biamping with a second NAP 500, and the differences were to say the least very significant. The major differences were mainly those as outlined by NigelP. Biamping can work in the right sitiuation.

Tony,

Thank you for telling me that the 500's really go in a biamped configuration. The 500 is the next step next year and, if all goes well, I will get a couple to get these 804's really moving!

From further digging. The best route is to get a highcap as it will feed two power amps. Then get the 150 as then you can add a second and run them as single channel amps. Might be worth trying one day

Milan

Milan –

Briefly read through this thread. If you want a Numerik DAC cheap, House of Music in Leamington Spa was flogging them (XDemo or SHand?) for around £500.

Linds

Richard,

I use option 2 and haven't tried the first one although thought it might be worth a try.

Milan,

I see that you're just up the road from me. If you want to hear bi-amping with an LP12 let me know.

Nigel

Thanks for the info. I have just aquired a 72 this week and therefore funds are limited for a while!

Milan

Linds,

Thanks for the info. Unforunately I have just used my current funds to purchase a 72!

Ta

Milan

Nigel,

Drop me an e-mail and we can set something up. I am on holiday next week and away on business the following week though. I am interested in hearing a bi amped set up.

Regards

Milan