Censorship, Free Opinion, Competitors, Symbiotes, Parasites and 'Free' Advertising
Posted by: Adam Meredith on 23 May 2009
I apologise – this is a rather rushed post to attempt a general explanation for a few decisions which have upset certain forum members and may have concerned others.
Every once in a while an individual or group will express a liking or preference for a product from A.N.Other manufacturer. The forum usually contains several such non-Naim discussions.
Naim exists in the market place by offering something which in many ways beats that of its competitors. Away from the forum you will and should listen to as many options as you deem sensible and always choose that which offers the best overall performance/value to you.
B&W, Focal, Neat, Kudos, Rega, Linn and countless others make products which many will wish to own alone or in combination with Naim equipment. They are competitors and denying their existence would be and is stupid/impossible.
For example: The Chord Company once had a symbiotic relationship with Naim - providing RCA phono versions of our DIN only leads. They grew and expanded their range and are now, in so far as we make interconnects and speaker/mains cables, a competitor.
Discussion of their (and similarly placed) products seems unproblematic - given the limits mentioned above.
Within this forum I will limit the number of threads but not, normally, the length of any one or few threads. The objections I have had in the past have been - over promotion by a small band of members who then appear (to me) a bit messianic and assume for themselves an importance beyond their numbers or relevance to the general membership.
If unchecked this runs the risk of turning the first page of any forum section into an exclusive discussion of Product X. It becomes effectively a single issue sub-forum with its own agenda. This will lead it into conflict with this Naim Forum and there will be tears before bedtime.
Recently I have decided to remove (and will prohibit) discussion of another product. This, upon reflection, turned out to be a simple decision for me - tying in with recent thoughts about a regrettable trend I have noted in some forums I visit.
A forum a potential goldmine for marketing - especially beneficial for small companies who wish to do away with the expense of old style advertising - often relying on a search engine to reflect the generated 'interest' by the number of hits or posts concerning their product. For some - publicity is publicity, whether positive or negative. It is a presence and it gets a name back into circulation. This can take the honest form of direct involvement by the manufacturer or, less overt, the use of proxies to post in their place or in support.
Such marketing can be very difficult to detect or confirm.
There is a benign form - where genuine enthusiasm leads to a desire to share experience of a new product. I in no way impugn the motives of such posts.
However, there is, for me at least, a separate case - where the products or services are parasitic on Naim's success and product range.
Some seek to offer a modification or alternative for a Naim specific part. Again - they are obviously free to do this but they will do this under their own steam - with their own advertising efforts, discussion on other forums but they will not be encouraged here at the expense of the ‘host’.
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by Middle Naim
You can please some of the people for some of the time......
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by BobF
Adam
I think you are doing a great job,keep it up (including the humour)
Bob
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by 555
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by Don Atkinson
Busy day, and not finished yet.
First thoughts are that the "rules" are about as clear as those govenrning MP's expenses.
But I will read them again later when I have more time to digest (or should that be Jest)
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by Pedro
Adam
I fully agree with the key points made. I have recently been involved in a discussion about a non-Naim product. What upset me at the time was the criticism of the original 'poster' plus one or two others who were criticised for the discussion by many who routinely use and discuss non-Naim products in their system. At the time, I used speakers as the example. There are others.
I respect the fact that this forum is an exceptional source of information, advice and experience that often helps others refine their options or improve the sound they get from their Naim system.
It is important that we respect the rules and guidelines of the forum and I for one, have not only learned a lot, but have enjoyed the humour, banter etc etc.
Pete
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by Rui Marques
555,
Pregnant Penguins complaining because Ovators are taking their place?
Cheers
Rui
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by 555
If you are a Polar Bear, beware ...
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by akseland
Like sands through the hour glass..
So are the Naims of our lives.

Posted on: 23 May 2009 by kuma
quote:
Originally posted by 555:
If you are a Polar Bear, beware ...
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by Onthlam
quote:
Originally posted by kuma:
quote:
Originally posted by 555:
If you are a Polar Bear, beware ...
A penguin pissing off a polar bear? They must be inlaws. Polar bears do not live anywhere near penguins.
M
Posted on: 23 May 2009 by Rui Marques
These days who knows where you can find penguins in a bad mood ... i will lock the listening room tonight.
Just for safety, don't wanna be confused with a polar bear.

Posted on: 23 May 2009 by SteveJansen
I think what you have said is quite reasonable Adam. I use Naim amps & CDP, but Chord cables. The reason for this isn't because I think Chord cables are any better in general, just that there is a huge price/quality gap in the Naim lineup that other dedicated cable manufactures can fill. With the Naim option there is a wide price difference between the two i/c & power cable options, and only one choice for speaker cable. Considering the practical upgrade path that Naim offers for electronics, the limited options for cables in the price range I can afford, made me look to Naim's old associate. I found the Anthem to be better to my ears than the lavender, but if there was a Naim option between the lavender & Hi-line, I probably would have gone for that as it would be voiced specifically for Naim amps. The Hi-line costs more than I paid for my 72/180 amps second-hand, and was out of my price range.
What I'm asking is that, is it ok to discuss other manufacturer's accessories when there is no direct Naim option. I guess it's a grey area, but I would hope those discussions would prompt Naim to look at filling the void in their lineup? I don't have any association with any manufacturer, Chord or otherwise, and apart from having an opinion, I don't think I have any axe to grind. I prefer to use this forum to gain knowledge, rather than push my point of view.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Chillkram
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
They are competitors and denying their existence would be and is stupid/impossible.
You said 'there'!
Not now I didn't.Posted on: 24 May 2009 by kuma
Good catch!

Posted on: 24 May 2009 by tonym
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
They are competitors and denying there existence would be and is stupid/impossible.
No mark, I think it's a punctuation error -
"They are competitors and denying! There! Existence would be and is stupid/impossible!"
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by BigH47
quote:
No mark, I think it's a punctuation error -
In that case it would be errors, ! and capital E. pedant smiley
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by fixedwheel
One point and a seat in a very warm place, reserved especially by The Management, for Chillkram!

Kuma, if you have a higher res copy of that piccie, I'd love to print out one for above my monitor. That is the kind of piccie that will always bring a smile.
John
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Michael_B.
A forum without discussion of direct competitors isn't a forum, it's a waste of space.
Either a company has the courage and confidence to have a forum or it s doesn't there's really no half-way house.
Coming down hard on prat postings is another matter....
Some of the recent turntable threads have been very puerile in my opinion and the reception of the Ovator - irrespective of the quality of the communications - must have been disappointing after all the hard work... but I can't help wondering if some of the latter has been disturbed by the general tone on here in recent weeks....
Still, it appears to have been a high-nerves Spring for most people this year....
Mike
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by SteveJansen
That's a good point Michael, and I hope that Naim allows some discussion of competition - it's good for them to hear what the buyers want in a product, & I'm glad they were reasonably open to posts on the Lavry for example, since it has a direct bearing on the price & quality of the forthcoming Naim DAC. But, I can understand their thoughts on the forum getting hijacked & becoming free advertising. If people want a more open forum, there are plenty of forums not related to a particular manufacturer (PFM, Audioholics etc). Aren't manufacturer's forums more owner's clubs, where you can get help & advice related to that manufacturer's products?
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Adam Meredith
quote:
Originally posted by Michael_B.:
A forum without discussion of direct competitors isn't a forum, it's a waste of space.
As you will have seen from my post - we agree.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by gary1 (US)
Look, Adam is not saying that all references to competitors will be banished. He's made clear references to Linn, Chord etc... and certainly has allowed innumerable comments about other speakers for example.
However, there (their-whichever works) is a balance which needs to be maintained and its Adam's job as Forum moderator to maintain that balance.
Personally, I think he was very generous with the Lavry and that got way out of hand with personal attacks which had nothing whatsoever to do with the product.
Obviously some posts have crossed the imaginary line.
PS: Steve, I do not think that Adam allowed the Lavry because of any direct effect on Naim's product development whatsoever. Dacs have been around for a long time and the popularity of the Linn DS series could not have gone unnoticed by Naim. Despite comments from members, none of us knows how long the DAC has been in development or whether it was not released earlier because Naim did not think it was up to snuff. Naim has traditionally not been a company that rushes products to market just to fill a niche and then start fiddleing with it later.
Despite Naim's perceived lateness to the DAC game, if the product(s) perform and the pricing is right it will sell. If a $1K Dac or less was the price of entry into the game for a short period of time and something comes along that's felt by the individual to be better and worth the added expense, then they will swap out.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Rodborough
Hi Adam
Many thanks for making this post, in my view it is long overdue and if I may perhaps I could add a little weight to the matters you seek to address.
Case 1
Some years ago now a then new accessory manufacturer sought to target Naim customers, his first plan was to give a leading member of the Naim forum thousands of pounds worth of the product free of charge, even massaging his ego by leading him to believe that somehow he was contributing to the development of said product. Additionally other forum members would be targeted for “Beta Testing” this product and offered preferential pricing.
Case 2
Part of an email received by me in late 2006
“I have been contacted by a number of members on the Naim Forum who have told me that unless I change my support to A N other dealer my credibility and that of my posts will be damaged and I have therefore decided to change my allegiance”
Case 3
A visitor here some months ago was telling me how he received a rebuke via email from a senior member of the forum regarding a post he had made, he ignored it and then later went on to receive yet another email demanding that he reply. “Who does he think he is?” I was asked, I told him to check the list of moderators on the forum he would find that it did not include his name and therefore nobody in reality.
Additionally I have recently received a total of three telephone calls from forum members who have expressed a desire to switch their allegiance from a particular dealer to us if we would be willing to offer the same terms of discounts and preferential service in exchange for promotional activity on the Naim Forum, now it is quite possible that these individuals are merely trying it on, or perhaps seeking to entrap us, whichever, their efforts failed.
Happily though, the vast majority of members of this great forum are not so naive as to be taken in by the often less than subtle antics of a very few who seemingly have but one aim, that of their own self promotion, and in some very sad cases indeed, believing in the very delusion they themselves have created.
However, it would also have to be said that over time we have lost some great contributors to this forum who have been bullied off for not towing the party line, often by orchestrated attacks organised via email & telephone behind the scenes and you might be well advised not to inadvertently actually copy me in on these emails.
Well it has been said
“Evil prospers, when good me remain silent”
So I wish you well Adam with this endeavour
Warmest regards
Norman
Partner – UHES
PS All these matters were passed on to Naim at the time they occurred, although our strict client confidentiality rules were applied.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
Norman,
Your post is enlightening about the lives of Hifi Dealers.
Enough to put me off wishing to become one.
George
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by 555
Sounds like the beginnings of the next scandal a La MPs expenses.

Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Sloop John B
I presume it's a very difficult job, forum moderation, with many conflicting goals.
Without the forum I would not know of the NaimUniti which I may well end up buying.
Without the forum I would not know of *** - again which I may end up buying.
One outcome is desired by Naim, the other presumably not.
Can you have one without the other? I don't think so. Symbiotic and parasitic relationships can be hard to classify.
My gut feeling is that the forum has strayed a little bit too far to the right lately and a slightly more liberal approach would not go amiss.
SJB