Censorship, Free Opinion, Competitors, Symbiotes, Parasites and 'Free' Advertising
Posted by: Adam Meredith on 23 May 2009
I apologise – this is a rather rushed post to attempt a general explanation for a few decisions which have upset certain forum members and may have concerned others.
Every once in a while an individual or group will express a liking or preference for a product from A.N.Other manufacturer. The forum usually contains several such non-Naim discussions.
Naim exists in the market place by offering something which in many ways beats that of its competitors. Away from the forum you will and should listen to as many options as you deem sensible and always choose that which offers the best overall performance/value to you.
B&W, Focal, Neat, Kudos, Rega, Linn and countless others make products which many will wish to own alone or in combination with Naim equipment. They are competitors and denying their existence would be and is stupid/impossible.
For example: The Chord Company once had a symbiotic relationship with Naim - providing RCA phono versions of our DIN only leads. They grew and expanded their range and are now, in so far as we make interconnects and speaker/mains cables, a competitor.
Discussion of their (and similarly placed) products seems unproblematic - given the limits mentioned above.
Within this forum I will limit the number of threads but not, normally, the length of any one or few threads. The objections I have had in the past have been - over promotion by a small band of members who then appear (to me) a bit messianic and assume for themselves an importance beyond their numbers or relevance to the general membership.
If unchecked this runs the risk of turning the first page of any forum section into an exclusive discussion of Product X. It becomes effectively a single issue sub-forum with its own agenda. This will lead it into conflict with this Naim Forum and there will be tears before bedtime.
Recently I have decided to remove (and will prohibit) discussion of another product. This, upon reflection, turned out to be a simple decision for me - tying in with recent thoughts about a regrettable trend I have noted in some forums I visit.
A forum a potential goldmine for marketing - especially beneficial for small companies who wish to do away with the expense of old style advertising - often relying on a search engine to reflect the generated 'interest' by the number of hits or posts concerning their product. For some - publicity is publicity, whether positive or negative. It is a presence and it gets a name back into circulation. This can take the honest form of direct involvement by the manufacturer or, less overt, the use of proxies to post in their place or in support.
Such marketing can be very difficult to detect or confirm.
There is a benign form - where genuine enthusiasm leads to a desire to share experience of a new product. I in no way impugn the motives of such posts.
However, there is, for me at least, a separate case - where the products or services are parasitic on Naim's success and product range.
Some seek to offer a modification or alternative for a Naim specific part. Again - they are obviously free to do this but they will do this under their own steam - with their own advertising efforts, discussion on other forums but they will not be encouraged here at the expense of the ‘host’.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by bob atherton
Adam, thank you for making some points clear. There is however one point that does not seem to square up. You say
“Some seek to offer a modification or alternative for a Naim specific part. Again - they are obviously free to do this but they will do this under their own steam - with their own advertising efforts, discussion on other forums but they will not be encouraged here at the expense of the ‘host’.”
I completely understand the modification to a Naim product bit. Posts like “I opened up my 250, put in a couple of gerbils and it blew the 500 out of the water” are obviously not welcome and frankly at worst potentially very dangerous.
The bit that I am struggling to understand is the “alternative for a Naim specific part”. Given that it is possible to have a complete Naim system from top to toe any other product not made by Naim is an alternative to a Naim specific product.
For example I use Hutter racks. I did this because Naim did an excellent dem a few years back with Hutter racks and they impressed me so much I bought some. Surely the Hutter is an alternative to the Naim Fraim. The same could be said of any other CD player rather than a Naim one. Chord interconnects I think, as I understand it from your post, are now taboo. What about other manufactures speaker cable? If I was still using my Linn cable, again as demmed by Naim, would that be OK?
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Adam Meredith
competitor n.E16. [Fr. compétiteur or L competitor, f. as COMPETE: see - OR.]
1 A person who competes, a contestant; a rival, esp. in trade.
symbiosis /sImbI"<schwa>UsIs, -bVI-/ n. Pl. -oses /-"<schwa>Usi:z/.E17. [mod.L f. Gk sumbiosis a living together, f. sumbioun live together, f. sumbios (adj.) living together, (n.) companion, partner, f. as SYM- + bios life: see -OSIS.]
***
2 Biol. An interaction between two dissimilar organisms living in close physical association; esp. one in which each benefits the other. Cf. COMMENSALISM, HELOTISM, MUTUALISM. L19.
parasite /"par<schwa>sVIt/ n.M16. [L parasitus f. Gk parasitos lit. (as adj.) <nfasp>feeding beside’, (as n.) <nfasp>person who eats at the table of another’, f. as PARA-1 + sitos food.]
***
***
3 An animal or plant which lives in or on another and draws its nutriment directly from it, harming it in the process.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by bob atherton
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
competitor n.E16. [Fr. compétiteur or L competitor, f. as COMPETE: see - OR.]
1 A person who competes, a contestant; a rival, esp. in trade.
.
OK, so is it alright to discuss a competitor’s product here? If it is not, then the ravens really have flown the tower and there is a sea change in the spirit of the forum. If it is OK to discuss a competitor’s product then it is business as usual.
If it is the latter and there is no business relationship with A N Other and if the posts are not a mouthpiece on behalf of A N Other then I fully understand things. What concerns me is that there is some sort of black list for certain manufactures or after a certain number of posts about a competitor’s product the thread is shut down as a matter of course.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Adam Meredith
No - those who produce a product that only specifically targets Naim products - say - an alternative crossover, power supply, system interconnect AND gain publicity, through forums, out of all proportion to their own efforts at promotion will not receive free space here.
I realise 1: it may be difficult to pin this down and 2: you may not wish to see any difference between those permitted and those not.
The nature of these small enterprises usually allows a price advantage, one man band, no VAT, business rates etc - disguising their profit margins through a lower price. They sell mail order or, at least, without retail outlets and, these days, seek to promote their goods through word of mouth on the internet.
The Naim Forum, for those who specifically target Naim, is the ideal place to gain free publicity.
Now - here is the step you have difficulty with - I will not provide that free publicity at Naim's expense.
Our competitors make other arrangements to promote alternative products in the same fields in which we operate. Competitors have a global focus quite like our own - they are not concentrated on our products but seek to sell their own to the market.
If Naim had never existed quite a few companies in the hifi business would still have emerged and prospered.
If Naim had never existed these "other" products would not exist.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Signals UK
Flipping heck! Having read Norman’s post I’d just like to say a big thank you to our customers for being so straightforward, thoroughly nice and only mildly scary when they ask awkward questions like “what does an iPod do with a Uniti?”.
Thankfully, we’ve been spared the kind of intimidation he was describing. Never any talk of allegiances or anything like that.
Come to think of it, not a lot of talk . . . ah, erm . . .wait . . .
As far as Adam’s post goes, I’m blighted by seeing both sides of the argument. I suspect the liberal and ‘open’ forum of the past was easier when there was less systematic trolling and opinion management going on all over the web. This is far less evident here than in the odd other places I’ve looked and the reason must be that the bastard in France is controlling it.
There was a period where the enthusiasm for certain 3rd party data replay solutions became so intense that anyone who did not agree that the Naim solution was over-priced crap was at a similar level to a Holocaust (or, worse, climate change) denier. At each step, it was a personal judgement. The cumulative effect was almost a movement. Personally felt that Adam had no choice but to stop it even though I know a lot of genuinely decent folk were outraged and even felt personally hurt in the process.
On t’other hand, a space where people simply enthuse to various degrees over Naim products, but never criticise anything would indeed be completely pointless.
I rather go along with SJB’s* feeling that it could edge a bit ‘left’ in the certain knowledge that it is asking a hell of lot of Adam to maintain it to this level of subtlety.
Good luck old bean, delete one post in ten on a random basis, that’ll sort it.
*I should say that the fact that SJB bought something from Signals once has no bearing on this judgement. Well, not a huge amount.
Alastair
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by 555
quote:
I’ve looked and the reason must be that the bastard in France ...

Posted on: 24 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
quote:
... which brings us back to ...
To Doh, doh, doh,
Doh, a deer, a female deer,
Fah, a longer way to run ...
Doh! That isn't right ...ATB from George
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Signals UK
quote:
Originally posted by 555:
quote:
I’ve looked and the reason must be that the bastard in France ...
Ah, but taken out of context

!
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by 555
quote:
Ah, but taken out of context

!
SFS
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Signals UK
Ok, I'm lost now. Please explain.
A
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by 555
Standard For Suffolk
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Adam Meredith
quote:
Originally posted by avole:
Too many other forums simply ban you if you discuss moderation.
Traveller, where is this brave new world of which you speak?
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Michael_B.
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
Traveller, where is this brave new world of which you speak?
If he told you, they'd have to kill him!

Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Michael_B.
Norman, I have to say that posting's unworthy of you and could lead people to thinking badly of entirely the wrong dealers. It simply creates blanket bad feeling.
That's meant in entirely the best of faith.
Cheers
Mike
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Signals UK
quote:
Standard For Suffolk
Ah, probably right. Except I'm a Scot. Been here too long, I guess.
Having munched some food, I'm suddenly racked with guilt. Sorry if the 'b' word offends anyone. I was merely getting into the frame of mind of those who were jarred off at the time.
Adam knows I would not be trying to insult him.
A
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Adam Meredith
quote:
Originally posted by Signals UK:
Adam knows I would not be trying to insult him.
quote:
Originally posted by Signals UK:
.... thoroughly nice and only mildly scary when they ask awkward questions like “what does an iPod do with a Uniti?”.
I know that if you tried you would succeed.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Signals UK
Oh yes. Bar steward job going OK?
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by 555
quote:
Adam knows I would not be trying to insult him.
Standard For Scotland works, but I was referring to you sticking your tongue out.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Signals UK
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Derek Wright
what a big URL for such a small poky thingy
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Signals UK
I'm trying to work out the odds on the next post not being riddled with innuendo.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Adam Meredith
Keep your pecker up and just stick it out.
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by u5227470736789439
KBO
WS Churchill used this as short for keep b***ering on, when things were getting tough.
ATB from George
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Originally posted by SteveJansen:
I'm glad they were reasonably open to posts on the Lavry for example, since it has a direct bearing on the price & quality of the forthcoming Naim DAC.
No I don't think so - no more than any other DAC. When it finally arrives I want the Naim DAC to sound like a Naim product not a Lavvy. I trust Naim to make the best DAC it can at the price point, not merely something that outperforms a Lavvy.
quote:
I can understand their thoughts on the forum getting hijacked & becoming free advertising. If people want a more open forum, there are plenty of forums not related to a particular manufacturer (PFM, Audioholics etc). Aren't manufacturer's forums more owner's clubs, where you can get help & advice related to that manufacturer's products?
Totally agree, I think the forum has it just about right. It does allow people to discuss non-Naim kit, but primarily it is centred on Naim kit and music.
ATB Rotf
Posted on: 24 May 2009 by 555
quote:
... I have not got the hand of the emoticon ...
Maybe change the name to Confused Signals then?
