the ring (again)
Posted by: fidelio on 16 May 2007
i have read past threads here on wagner's ring with interest. (and i hesitate to tread here, where one poster suggested another review debussy as his wagner views were not sufficiently manly; but, i forge ahead ... let's be civil, now boys). and what's a music forum w/o a thread on the ring going? i have done a minimal amount of research on this, and there does not appear to be one "definitive" cycle available (although i may be at the point of picking up sawallisch's effort, even though the sound isn't too hot, or krauss's - ??). i have noted that fisch, with an australian opera, is in the middle of a new dsd recording, and two or three operas are out. also, janowski's version w/ the dresden wasn't mentioned in previous threads. anyway i'm curious whether there are any fresh views on this. fwiw, sound quality matters, but i'm not averse to mono lp's if they aren't distorted hissers. this is not a recording one buys on a lark, as it's a heavy investment in time and money. i sat through the damn thing last year, and need a "reference." wish i had a recording of that one (placido was sigmund) ....
thanks.
thanks.
Posted on: 16 May 2007 by Tam
Dear Fidelio,
I am not sure what I can add that I haven't said before (for which read, those who've read my previous posts on the subject are likely to find this repetitive).
As you rightly say, there is no definitive cycle, but then I hold the opinion that there is no 'definitive' recording of anything, least of all a work on this scale where there is so much, so many different and valid takes and so many challenges for the performers. In many ways, it's impressive that there exist satisfactory accounts and quite amazing that we have such a choice of very good ones.
To begin at the beginning, I think the first great cycle on disc is the Krauss cycle from the 1953 Bayreuth festival. Some might argue for the earlier Furtwangler recording from La Scala in 1951 (and I like it very much indeed), however it has sound that is some way beyond terrible (there are frequent drop-outs and no shortage of tape noise) and both Walkure and Siegfried are cut (the latter being the a bigger problem for me). One also has a rather enthusiastic audience to contend with. Krauss is very special. The cast includes Hotter as Wotan, Windgassen as Siegfried and Varnay as Brunnhilde. He takes a relatively swift view (but it doesn't feel rushed). Siegfried and Rheingold are the particular highlights for me. It is also cheap (around £40) though the packaging is minimal in terms of notes or libretto - you get a track listing and that's it. The other flaw, and this is the more significant, is that the sound is still poor. Not nearly so bad as the Furtwangler but not good either. Harsh and often tinny. Still, the music shines through.
Some would also make a case for another Ring of 1953, made just a few months later, Furtwangler again, this time with the Rome radio orchestra, but I am not among them. The sound is reasonably good, but the orchestral playing is not really as good as it ought to be. The singers are very good in Rheingold (which includes Wolfgang Windgassen's Loge and Gustav Neidlinger's Alberich) but less impressive in later operas. Furtwangler was an extraordinary Wagnerian (as many of the exert recordings I have and his Tristan illustrate, it still annoys me that he was not able to conduct a Bayreuth Ring in the early 50s - had he, we might have our definitive).
What might be termed the definitive Ring (and certainly seems to have been hailed as such in the press of late) is the 1955 Bayreuth effort of Joseph Keilberth. Comparatively little known prior to this release (and, perhaps unkindly, I would suggest there is a reason for this). The first selling point of this set is its sound quality - it is the first stereo recording. At least, that is the claim. However, I find it rather poor (indeed, I think the radio relay from the following year is better). The whole of scene 3 of Rheingold is ruined by the noise of a dry ice machine (or sounds like). His conducting is frequently rushed. I've only bought Rheingold and Siegfried and haven't felt the need to explore further. The Siegfried is wonderful (and the recording better), and Hotter has never been caught finer. But there is also distortion on Windgassen and Varnay's louder notes. It is also extremely expensive (around £140) and the notes are identical to each issue, which I also think is a little 'cheap' in this price bracket. In some ways the presentation of this is very unlike the testament label that has put it out (another example is the hamfisted disc break in Rheingold or the fact that Siegfried would comfortably fit on 3 discs rather than the four).
1956, and again at Bayreuth, brings the first of 3 cycles from Hans Knappertsbusch and my second great recording. The cast is near-identical to the other 50s Bayreuth Rings (the only interesting point is that if you go for his 1957 you get the young Birgit Nilsson as Sieglinde). Kna takes his tempi slowly, always risky in Wagner, but he pulls it off magnificently. The sound is about as find as mono radio relays get. Available for around £60 (though presumably it ought to be out a lot cheaper as it's now out of copyright).
Into the 60s and we get the great studio Rings. First we had Solti (actually, he started in the late 50s). The first issue with this (and most studio Rings) is that the casting is less consistent than with live issues. Wotan changes, as does Frika and I'm sure others. Solti and the VPO do not. Neither does the sound, which is extraordinary. Some will find the balance favours the orchestra over the singers, but for some, such as myself, this is one of the things that makes the set special. Nilsson and Windgassen are excellent (if not quite so fine as the singing in some of the recordings mentioned above). Some find his tempi and treatment of the score over-driven. But, there is a reason this has become such a benchmark (and for many a definitive reading) with a sonic standard that wasn't really outclassed until Haitink (which has problems of its own) some 3 decades later.
Hot on his heels came Karajan with the BPO. I've only listened to the first disc so far, but like what I've heard. The playing is wonderful. We get Fischer-Dieskau as Wotan for one opera (though it is worth noting that the casting is even less consistent than Solti).
The 60s also brought a live recording regarded as great by many, though not me. Bohm's Bayreuth reading. For me it has two problems - it is caught between two stools having neither the sound of Solti nor quite the musical calibre of the 50s cycles. It is also somewhat crippled by the Wotan of Theo Adam (a fine Alberich in later years, but not up to Hotter's standard here). Gotterdammerung is fine though.
In another thread a few months back it was suggested that recordings now were not so great as recordings of decades past. This is one area where I have a real sympathy with this argument. As one moves forward to modern Rings, I have heard (at least until Runnicles records a cycle) nothing to treasure. The problems, by and large, are that the singers are just not as good as their predecessors. Barenboim (Bayreuth 1992) is fine enough, and has the wonderful Mime and Loge of Graham Clark, but he actually falls down by trying to be Furtwangler and not. Haitink's Dresden orchestra sound phenomenal, but his Brunnhilde (Marton) sounds painfully like a fire alarm. This is a real shame as his treatment of the score is magical but whenever she comes on I have to get up and lower the volume. Then there is James Levine at the Met. He is highly regarded by some, but I can't for the life of me see why. He too goes exceptionally slowly, but doesn't pull it off, the result is dull, very dull. Even duller if you invest in the DVDs where the Met have managed one of the dullest productions imaginable.
So, there you go, as far as I'm concerned, the key recordings are those of Solti, Krauss and Knappertsbusch. I wouldn't want to be without the Haitink Rheingold or the Scala Furtwangler either. I reserve judgement on Karajan until I've got round to hearing it all.
regards, Tam
I am not sure what I can add that I haven't said before (for which read, those who've read my previous posts on the subject are likely to find this repetitive).
As you rightly say, there is no definitive cycle, but then I hold the opinion that there is no 'definitive' recording of anything, least of all a work on this scale where there is so much, so many different and valid takes and so many challenges for the performers. In many ways, it's impressive that there exist satisfactory accounts and quite amazing that we have such a choice of very good ones.
To begin at the beginning, I think the first great cycle on disc is the Krauss cycle from the 1953 Bayreuth festival. Some might argue for the earlier Furtwangler recording from La Scala in 1951 (and I like it very much indeed), however it has sound that is some way beyond terrible (there are frequent drop-outs and no shortage of tape noise) and both Walkure and Siegfried are cut (the latter being the a bigger problem for me). One also has a rather enthusiastic audience to contend with. Krauss is very special. The cast includes Hotter as Wotan, Windgassen as Siegfried and Varnay as Brunnhilde. He takes a relatively swift view (but it doesn't feel rushed). Siegfried and Rheingold are the particular highlights for me. It is also cheap (around £40) though the packaging is minimal in terms of notes or libretto - you get a track listing and that's it. The other flaw, and this is the more significant, is that the sound is still poor. Not nearly so bad as the Furtwangler but not good either. Harsh and often tinny. Still, the music shines through.
Some would also make a case for another Ring of 1953, made just a few months later, Furtwangler again, this time with the Rome radio orchestra, but I am not among them. The sound is reasonably good, but the orchestral playing is not really as good as it ought to be. The singers are very good in Rheingold (which includes Wolfgang Windgassen's Loge and Gustav Neidlinger's Alberich) but less impressive in later operas. Furtwangler was an extraordinary Wagnerian (as many of the exert recordings I have and his Tristan illustrate, it still annoys me that he was not able to conduct a Bayreuth Ring in the early 50s - had he, we might have our definitive).
What might be termed the definitive Ring (and certainly seems to have been hailed as such in the press of late) is the 1955 Bayreuth effort of Joseph Keilberth. Comparatively little known prior to this release (and, perhaps unkindly, I would suggest there is a reason for this). The first selling point of this set is its sound quality - it is the first stereo recording. At least, that is the claim. However, I find it rather poor (indeed, I think the radio relay from the following year is better). The whole of scene 3 of Rheingold is ruined by the noise of a dry ice machine (or sounds like). His conducting is frequently rushed. I've only bought Rheingold and Siegfried and haven't felt the need to explore further. The Siegfried is wonderful (and the recording better), and Hotter has never been caught finer. But there is also distortion on Windgassen and Varnay's louder notes. It is also extremely expensive (around £140) and the notes are identical to each issue, which I also think is a little 'cheap' in this price bracket. In some ways the presentation of this is very unlike the testament label that has put it out (another example is the hamfisted disc break in Rheingold or the fact that Siegfried would comfortably fit on 3 discs rather than the four).
1956, and again at Bayreuth, brings the first of 3 cycles from Hans Knappertsbusch and my second great recording. The cast is near-identical to the other 50s Bayreuth Rings (the only interesting point is that if you go for his 1957 you get the young Birgit Nilsson as Sieglinde). Kna takes his tempi slowly, always risky in Wagner, but he pulls it off magnificently. The sound is about as find as mono radio relays get. Available for around £60 (though presumably it ought to be out a lot cheaper as it's now out of copyright).
Into the 60s and we get the great studio Rings. First we had Solti (actually, he started in the late 50s). The first issue with this (and most studio Rings) is that the casting is less consistent than with live issues. Wotan changes, as does Frika and I'm sure others. Solti and the VPO do not. Neither does the sound, which is extraordinary. Some will find the balance favours the orchestra over the singers, but for some, such as myself, this is one of the things that makes the set special. Nilsson and Windgassen are excellent (if not quite so fine as the singing in some of the recordings mentioned above). Some find his tempi and treatment of the score over-driven. But, there is a reason this has become such a benchmark (and for many a definitive reading) with a sonic standard that wasn't really outclassed until Haitink (which has problems of its own) some 3 decades later.
Hot on his heels came Karajan with the BPO. I've only listened to the first disc so far, but like what I've heard. The playing is wonderful. We get Fischer-Dieskau as Wotan for one opera (though it is worth noting that the casting is even less consistent than Solti).
The 60s also brought a live recording regarded as great by many, though not me. Bohm's Bayreuth reading. For me it has two problems - it is caught between two stools having neither the sound of Solti nor quite the musical calibre of the 50s cycles. It is also somewhat crippled by the Wotan of Theo Adam (a fine Alberich in later years, but not up to Hotter's standard here). Gotterdammerung is fine though.
In another thread a few months back it was suggested that recordings now were not so great as recordings of decades past. This is one area where I have a real sympathy with this argument. As one moves forward to modern Rings, I have heard (at least until Runnicles records a cycle) nothing to treasure. The problems, by and large, are that the singers are just not as good as their predecessors. Barenboim (Bayreuth 1992) is fine enough, and has the wonderful Mime and Loge of Graham Clark, but he actually falls down by trying to be Furtwangler and not. Haitink's Dresden orchestra sound phenomenal, but his Brunnhilde (Marton) sounds painfully like a fire alarm. This is a real shame as his treatment of the score is magical but whenever she comes on I have to get up and lower the volume. Then there is James Levine at the Met. He is highly regarded by some, but I can't for the life of me see why. He too goes exceptionally slowly, but doesn't pull it off, the result is dull, very dull. Even duller if you invest in the DVDs where the Met have managed one of the dullest productions imaginable.
So, there you go, as far as I'm concerned, the key recordings are those of Solti, Krauss and Knappertsbusch. I wouldn't want to be without the Haitink Rheingold or the Scala Furtwangler either. I reserve judgement on Karajan until I've got round to hearing it all.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 19 May 2007 by Todd A
quote:Originally posted by Tam:
...1955 Bayreuth effort of Joseph Keilberth. Comparatively little known prior to this release (and, perhaps unkindly, I would suggest there is a reason for this).
The primary reason it was little known is that the original tapes were not available due to John Culshaw's machinations. Pirate jobs weren't widespread enough.
I disagree about the overall quality: this is the second finest Ring I've heard, after only the Krauss.
For modern sound there's always the Barenboim cycle, but it has some weak points.
--
Posted on: 19 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
quote:Originally posted by Todd Arola:
For modern sound there's always the **** cycle, but it has some weak points.
--
I am fascinated by the interest in this excessively long music. Was it GB Shaw or Oskar Wilde who commented on the endless three quarters of an hour [in one unmodulated key]? This must be the ultimate weak point...
Furtwangler [one of the great Wagnerians, as has already been alluded to in this thread], on being asked about the depth of the music [with reference to it being rather shallow] replied that its surface was the point: "Yes, but what a surface!" It surprises me still that having comprehended it {may take some considerable time], anyone would return to it. There is more in a three minute stofic song [Lied] of Schubert than the whole of Gotterdamerung [the best of the four in the Ring], from a human emotional POV! Sorry, but Wagner is "an empty vessel making an awful lot of noise" - Furtwangler. In this case it is hard to divorce one's response to RW's shallow music from his rather morally shallow personality: Shared wife [with von Bulow], and seriously nasty racial writings - he should have spared that time writing another over-long opera in my view, etc. WF retained an even greater disdain for Richard Strauss...
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 20 May 2007 by fidelio
not being an opera "specialist," shall we say, i wonder about this issue of present-day singers not being up to the quality of those from the '50s. i have noted that there seems to be a consensus on this. does anyone wish to volunteer an opinion? it could certainly be just coincidental, imaginary, or even perhaps a reflection in the general decline in classical music (outside of china, anyway!). is this what future generations have to look forward to - wagner lite??
Posted on: 20 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Fidelio,
It is probably true that Wagner singing is less good than it was fifty years ago. There seems to enough recorded evidence for this.
But at the same time the singing in Mozart has improved, so I am not convinced this is talent related!
I have an explanation of this which is at least plausable. In the last fifty years orchestras have got much louder, using steel string instead of gut, and modern broad-bore brass instruments etc, and playing techniques to match. Thus in Wagner where the singers are expected to have huge stamina, they are now required to sing louder as well just as nominal default. Throughout a career this is ruinous for a voice.
Its an idea isn't it? ATB from Fredrik
It is probably true that Wagner singing is less good than it was fifty years ago. There seems to enough recorded evidence for this.
But at the same time the singing in Mozart has improved, so I am not convinced this is talent related!
I have an explanation of this which is at least plausable. In the last fifty years orchestras have got much louder, using steel string instead of gut, and modern broad-bore brass instruments etc, and playing techniques to match. Thus in Wagner where the singers are expected to have huge stamina, they are now required to sing louder as well just as nominal default. Throughout a career this is ruinous for a voice.
Its an idea isn't it? ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 20 May 2007 by Tam
Dear Todd, I was suggesting (perhaps wrongly, though not in my case an many I know), that Keilberth was less well known, rather than the particular recording. Of course, if his particular reading appeals, as it clearly does to some, I can see why people recommend it. However, I think, interpretive questions aside, the technical quality of the recording simply is not as impressive as it has been hyped to be.
Dear Fredrik, I think you are unfair in talking about this music as 'excessively long'. I don't think this is any truer of the Ring than it is of, say, many of Bruckner's symphonies (indeed, less so). It may be true that in some regards some of Schubert's songs contain more, but in other regards, I think they contain an awful lot less. I also don't think it's difficult at all to divorce Wagner's music from this kind of person he was, since I don't think it makes it's way into his music.
Dear Fredrik and Fidelio, Actually the current state of Wagnerian singers is not as depressing as it might be. We have the wonderful Christine Brewer (who will sing Gotterdammerung and the Proms and her first Ring not too long from now) and Nina Stemme who sung Isolde very well on the Domingo recording (and I believe also on stage, though I haven't heard her). Finding men who can do the big tenor roles is hard, but, with the exception of the likes of Windgassen, was there ever a time when it was easy. Siegfried Jerusalem was very good in his day (though his day is probably now past).
I'm not convinced the problem has so much to do with the volume of orchestras but rather more to do with young singers pushing their voice too far too young. If one looks, for example, at Domingo, while not a great Wagner tenor in the manner of Windgassen, has managed, by being sensible, to keep is voice good for an impressively long time and is still able to perform well in roles such as Siegmund (assuming one doesn't mind his pronunciation).
regards, Tam
Dear Fredrik, I think you are unfair in talking about this music as 'excessively long'. I don't think this is any truer of the Ring than it is of, say, many of Bruckner's symphonies (indeed, less so). It may be true that in some regards some of Schubert's songs contain more, but in other regards, I think they contain an awful lot less. I also don't think it's difficult at all to divorce Wagner's music from this kind of person he was, since I don't think it makes it's way into his music.
Dear Fredrik and Fidelio, Actually the current state of Wagnerian singers is not as depressing as it might be. We have the wonderful Christine Brewer (who will sing Gotterdammerung and the Proms and her first Ring not too long from now) and Nina Stemme who sung Isolde very well on the Domingo recording (and I believe also on stage, though I haven't heard her). Finding men who can do the big tenor roles is hard, but, with the exception of the likes of Windgassen, was there ever a time when it was easy. Siegfried Jerusalem was very good in his day (though his day is probably now past).
I'm not convinced the problem has so much to do with the volume of orchestras but rather more to do with young singers pushing their voice too far too young. If one looks, for example, at Domingo, while not a great Wagner tenor in the manner of Windgassen, has managed, by being sensible, to keep is voice good for an impressively long time and is still able to perform well in roles such as Siegmund (assuming one doesn't mind his pronunciation).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 20 May 2007 by fidelio
tam, domingo sang that role in the ring i saw last year; he really has maintained his voice, hasn't he? not sure if you are aware he has signed on for another season or more as the director at l.a. opera. don't think i've ever heard windgassen. but i thought, all in all, that the russian singers were good in last year's orange county ring (but i'm pretty non-critical, so ...). well, i have ordered the krauss. looking forward to listening to it.
Posted on: 20 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
I think Tam makes a very good point about the pressure on young singers to take on "over heavy" roles too soon, which produces in a less good result, and certainly shortens the singing career. Thinking back to old Sopranos like Isobel Bailey and Elisabeth Schumann, they remained active into the sixties, as did Flagstad, though she reduced the weight of roles she would take on in old age, and by the time she recorded Tristan in 1952, she was no longer confident her voice could encompass al9ll the very highest notes.
At much the same time she made a lovely recording of Purcell's Dido and Aeneas, which shows what a lovely artist she was outside her "tradition" roles in Wagner. She is altogether freer in the Purcell! Lovely...
ATB from Fredrik
At much the same time she made a lovely recording of Purcell's Dido and Aeneas, which shows what a lovely artist she was outside her "tradition" roles in Wagner. She is altogether freer in the Purcell! Lovely...
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 20 May 2007 by fidelio
fred, thanks for that. i've always loved that pucell, have several "new" recordings. just ordered the flagstad '51 version .... rgds.
Posted on: 20 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear fidelio,
That is her best record in my view except for one other life-long series! Sorry for the off-topic diversion here. Greig Melodie which she recorded between 1921 and about 1956.
I have the now defunct EMI "Great Recordings Of The Century" collation of the best of them, and to be honest it one of the very few non-Bach records that can guarantee to reduce me to tears, such is the free [but essentially classical in style, and surprising short on overt expression!] intensity in performing these appparently simple ideas. subtle and devastating.
Send me an email if you are interested, E Address in Profile...
Fredrik
That is her best record in my view except for one other life-long series! Sorry for the off-topic diversion here. Greig Melodie which she recorded between 1921 and about 1956.
I have the now defunct EMI "Great Recordings Of The Century" collation of the best of them, and to be honest it one of the very few non-Bach records that can guarantee to reduce me to tears, such is the free [but essentially classical in style, and surprising short on overt expression!] intensity in performing these appparently simple ideas. subtle and devastating.
Send me an email if you are interested, E Address in Profile...
Fredrik
Posted on: 20 May 2007 by Tam
Dear Fredrik,
Speaking of Flagstad, and indeed Furtwangler, have you heard the new (and off-topic) release from Testament of Strauss 4 last songs from the pair, with the Philharmonia. The sound isn't perfect, but it was the world premier and is quite something.
regards, Tam
Speaking of Flagstad, and indeed Furtwangler, have you heard the new (and off-topic) release from Testament of Strauss 4 last songs from the pair, with the Philharmonia. The sound isn't perfect, but it was the world premier and is quite something.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 20 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,
I have indeed heard of it and it appears as a pseudo-recomedation on my Klemperer/Beethoven thread!
Yes I have it planned to get, for my fellow country-lady Miss Flagstad! I can bet it is priceless. It was the only time she performed all four songs together. I have an Oslo tape of her singing "Im Abendrot" which is probably the most amazing recording of anything I have. I think by then a lot of dust had settled. Furtwangler had found ease with his situation, though I find this fairly close the edge!
It is amazing how nice this circumstance [of the premiere] was in that by 1948 the Allies were Germany's best friends, and welcomed what should have been a German premiere, so open-heartedly by 1950...
One day soon I will get on the Testament site and order it with a few of those Klemperer live Beethoven performances!
The first purchases this years as it happens, though yesterday I was given Apocolytica's recording of "Nothing Else Matters" which is devastating in its emotional sweep for me!
Goodnight, dear Tam! From Fredrik
I have indeed heard of it and it appears as a pseudo-recomedation on my Klemperer/Beethoven thread!
Yes I have it planned to get, for my fellow country-lady Miss Flagstad! I can bet it is priceless. It was the only time she performed all four songs together. I have an Oslo tape of her singing "Im Abendrot" which is probably the most amazing recording of anything I have. I think by then a lot of dust had settled. Furtwangler had found ease with his situation, though I find this fairly close the edge!
It is amazing how nice this circumstance [of the premiere] was in that by 1948 the Allies were Germany's best friends, and welcomed what should have been a German premiere, so open-heartedly by 1950...
One day soon I will get on the Testament site and order it with a few of those Klemperer live Beethoven performances!
The first purchases this years as it happens, though yesterday I was given Apocolytica's recording of "Nothing Else Matters" which is devastating in its emotional sweep for me!
Goodnight, dear Tam! From Fredrik