Best streaming product?

Posted by: Dustysox on 04 June 2010

Afternoon gents.

I am currently using my "old" trusty Logitech Transporter as my main source. I keep seeing Majik ds pop up in forum reading. Is this a step up in audio compared to my Transporter? I'm not ready (...just yet!) to make a move on my source with so many changes in the "Streaming" pipeline.

As with all things Hi-Fi, i was just wondering...like "we" do...what if...!!
Posted on: 12 June 2010 by connon price
quote:
Originally posted by rich46:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Crap. They're better. You're just looking at the old stuff through rose tinted specs.[/QUOTE

biggest change is bigger profit margins for dealers. and i do know what dealers make on equipment etc


Oh, Rich. That's rich. Dealer margin fantasy aside (which products, which manufacturers?) you might want to qualify what you mean by "different but not better"

The DAC, which you seem to regard with enthusiasm, did not exist a year ago. Is it simply more "stable", leading us to believe, after a while, that it is better?

Of course there are many products that are just different and design advances in some aspect might actually be a step backwards in another musically, but on balance and given an example like Naim succession of NAC112/NAC112x/NAC122x/NAC152xs pre-amps, do you really believe music reproduction has not advanced in quality?

Oh sure, NACA5 is still NACA5. But so is oxygen still oxygen. Winker
Posted on: 14 June 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by Pev:
"So wav, foobar And tags don't go well together at the moment"

Damn - after fiddling around for ages and downloading T&R without success - I guess Foobar is not for me - any suggestions for a player that does handle WAV and tags? Not Itunes!


It isn't Foobar that has the problem, it is the WAV specification. The "Info tag" on a WAV file is not meant to be used like this. It corrupts the file. This is demonstrated by a nasty "noise" before or after a song on the Naim DAC (from USB stick).

To correctly use tags with a WAV file you must use associated tags that reside elsewhere and are "pointed to" by the WAV for the Media Player. This is EXACTLY how the HDX works. There is a corresponding XML (i think) file that the HDX reads the tags from.

Using a WAV file to store actual Artist, Album, etc "tags" is NOT within the WAV format spec and should not be done as far as I am concerned.

If I personally was going to use WAV files, I would NOT use a traditional media player. I would most likely play from file/folder structure (right click, "Play in Media Player XYZ")

I am not a MM expert but I am pretty sure it uses an external method of WAV tagging a la the HDX. I could be wrong though. MM might allow illegal WAV tagging.

In the end though, I would avoid it. I know sometimes they are difficult/impossible to remove.

The best advice I can offer is to use FLAC.

-2 cents Patrick
Posted on: 14 June 2010 by Aleg
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
...
It isn't Foobar that has the problem, it is the WAV specification. The "Info tag" on a WAV file is not meant to be used like this. It corrupts the file. This is demonstrated by a nasty "noise" before or after a song on the Naim DAC (from USB stick).
...
-2 cents Patrick


A bit of a bold statement Patrick.

Now you are using nDAC as a reference implementation of the WAV-specification!?
AFAIK Naim were going to bring out an update to handle this issue.

And what is stored in the meta-information of a WAV-file (which is of course outside of the music information) shouldn't influence playback at all. It certainly doesn't corrupt the file or the music. The implementation of the player should carefully stick to the music section.

WAV-specification has always included an area for meta-information the INFO, the only thing that has not been standardised is how to label the information for all the audio tags within this section.

Even your beloved Foobar will play tagged WAVs without any problems or loss of sound quality!! Winker

-
aleg
Posted on: 15 June 2010 by nap-ster
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
It isn't Foobar that has the problem, it is the WAV specification. The "Info tag" on a WAV file is not meant to be used like this. It corrupts the file. This is demonstrated by a nasty "noise" before or after a song on the Naim DAC (from USB stick).


Can't say I've heard this before?

Isn't the best streaming device anything that has a digital out if you're using the nDAC?
Posted on: 15 June 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:


A bit of a bold statement Patrick.


Sooooooooo, writing an RIFF chunk into a WAV file that was never intended/designed to use it, to the point that almost every media player has problems with them, is a problem with Foobar?

Just because someone found a workaround for this doesn't mean it is within spec.

-Patrick
Posted on: 15 June 2010 by Aleg
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:


A bit of a bold statement Patrick.


Sooooooooo, writing an RIFF chunk into a WAV file that was never intended/designed to use it, to the point that almost every media player has problems with them, is a problem with Foobar?

Just because someone found a workaround for this doesn't mean it is within spec.

-Patrick


Patrick

From the WAV-specifications:

quote:
Full name WAVE. Waveform Audio File Format
Description: File format for audio. Wrapper file format that can incorporate an audio bitstream with other data chunks. The default bitstream encoding is the Microsoft Pulse Code Modulation (LPCM) format.

Relationship to other formats: Subtype of RIFF, Resource Interchange File Format for Windows 3.1



Another relevant part of the WAV-specifications:

quote:
Self-documentation: Metadata can be placed in the INFO chunk (aka "LIST" chunk with a list type of "INFO") associated with all RIFF files.


So the INFO chunk is and has always been a part of the WAV-specification (WAV being a subtype of RIFF).

It is just that Foobar (and also at the moment still many other players) don't read any meta information, IMO, because there is not a firmly defined standard for how to code the tags for the meta-information.

Foobar,and many other players, play tagged wav-files without any problems at all.

It is just that they ignore the meta information.

-
aleg
Posted on: 15 June 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:


Foobar,and many other players, play tagged wav-files without any problems at all.

It is just that they ignore the meta information.


Correct. Exactly my point. If the WAV files were supposed to be used in this fashion media players would handle them.

Regardless, WAV is not really usable in iTunes or Foobar so the fact that they "Play" is great but of little concern to me.

Anyway..... back to the topic at hand... Best Streaming Product???
Posted on: 15 June 2010 by T38.45
best streaming product linn klimax ds:-)
Posted on: 15 June 2010 by Aleg
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
... If the WAV files were supposed to be used in this fashion media players would handle them.
...


Progress, Patrick, progress... Razz. Big Grin

-
aleg
Posted on: 15 June 2010 by js
Wav is not useless in Itunes. You can build a fine library if you like and it will hold the info. You just can't import without some additional tagging. Foobar can't see or supply tags for wav. Frown
Posted on: 15 June 2010 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:


Anyway..... back to the topic at hand... Best Streaming Product???
Posted on: 15 June 2010 by rich46
IT SEEMS THE RACE IS ON TO PRODUCE A COST EFFECTIVE MEDIA PLAYER CAMBRIDGE AUDIO PLAYER 340£
Posted on: 16 June 2010 by likesmusic
that's an interesting product rich46 .. amazing how cheap a media player can be if you don't machine the case out of the solid .. if you hunt about you will find it has wireless and ethernet network capability, optical and s/p dif digital outputs as well as audio, and a local USB connection. If it's the price you say .. Smile
Posted on: 17 June 2010 by rich46
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Crap. They're better. You're just looking at the old stuff through rose tinted specs.


dealers sell for profit
Posted on: 17 June 2010 by pcstockton
Yes Rich, the Cambridge Audio dealers will tell you both that this new product is better than those it supersedes, and also be happy (require) to sell it to you for a profit.

point?
Posted on: 17 June 2010 by connon price
no point. There is a lighthouse at Point No Point here in Washington state which is described thusly:

From the northern tip of the Kitsap Peninsula, a low sandspit extends east for over a quarter of a mile into the waters near the junction of Admiralty Inlet and Puget Sound. In 1841, Charles Wilkes of the U.S. Exploring Expedition approached the spit thinking it was a substantial point. On finding that it was much smaller than he had expected, Wilkes designated the spit Point No Point. Previously, Indians had given the point a more descriptive name - Hahd-skus, meaning long nose.
Posted on: 18 June 2010 by pcstockton
Best ever Connon. I just spit mirror pond all over my keyboard.
Posted on: 18 June 2010 by connon price
Smile
Posted on: 19 June 2010 by David Dever
quote:
Originally posted by rich46:
IT SEEMS THE RACE IS ON TO PRODUCE A COST EFFECTIVE MEDIA PLAYER CAMBRIDGE AUDIO PLAYER 340£


Based on retailers' prior experience with the Cambridge-branded music server (same platform as the nefarious Arcam MS250), this almost elicits a chuckle. Enjoy.
Posted on: 25 June 2010 by rich46
we are all waiting for a top quality streamer with a line out /digital only
Posted on: 25 June 2010 by pcstockton
to what end rich? Buy an original Squeezebox. Does that fit the bill?
Posted on: 25 June 2010 by gone
quote:
Originally posted by rich46:
we are all waiting for a top quality streamer with a line out /digital only


The more I think about this, the more unlikely I think it will be a digital output.
In view of the 'issues' related to transferring the digital data to an out-box DAC (at least two interminable threads), why not keep it 'in-house' and think in terms of a CD555 without the CD, but with the LAN input.
That way, you can control everything that's critical - microphony, jitter, 'other stuff that matters'....
Whether or not it is a streamer a la Linn, with an external server and control point, or a more integrated player a la HDX is anyone's guess.

Since an external reference DAC has been hinted at (not necessarily officially I might add), then I can understand that, simply to widen the market appeal, but perhaps a streamer head unit with I2S interface might be a possibility

But for the moment, the KDS is a formidable streaming solution
Posted on: 25 June 2010 by js
Posted on: 25 June 2010 by pcstockton
Who the hell has a keyboard or a mouse with that on the end of it these days??? Confused

S-Video?

What year was this thing made?

Where is the 900 pin "printer cable" for hooking up my dot matrix!
Posted on: 25 June 2010 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
Where is the 900 pin "printer cable" for hooking up my dot matrix!
You can only use a printer with the add-on PSU - think it is daisy wheel only though so not sure your DM will work.

Must admit I'm puzzled by the back panel.

quote:
Who the hell has a keyboard or a mouse with that on the end of it these days?
Presumably you can use the USB ports instead, but can't you just use an iPad or something to drive it; I hope so if I've got to connect a mouse, keyboard and screen then my interest has waned. I'll need to know a lot more about how this works before considering it as a transport.